Improved Familiars and Class Skills

[thegreenteagamer]

Say I use Improved Familiar to get a sprite familiar. What are his class skills? I know he uses my ranks, but I'm trying to determine where he gets the +3 bonus.

Here's the confusion...

The familiar entry says their class skills are Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth and Swim

But the entry for fey, which sprites are, says their class skills are Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device.

That's a lot more. Which do I use? Especially nice is that UMD is on the list, so this is a matter most important to me.

[thegreenteagamer]

Wow. Considering I couldn't find any answers to this on a search of the forum, I didn't think it would need this, but...

...bump.

[Chess Pwn]

I find that tough questions that no one knows just don't get any posts.

[Weirdo]

I'm not positive, but I think that in this case the shorter list is the default class skills for basic familiars, and is overridden by the Sprite's specific list.

[Pupsocket]

IF the skills listed for Familiars are identical to the skill list for Animals, then it's safe to assume that the list is a helpful tool for the standard case (familiar is an animal), not an override (these skills are class skills, regardless of the familiar's creature type).

[dragonhunterq]

improved familiar wrote:

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

I doubt many GMs would object to you using the fey list, but I think it's safe to say you should use the familiar class skill list.

[The Golux]

At any rate, the class skills for the different types of monsters are in the bestiary appendices, aren't they?

[Weirdo]

Pupsocket wrote:

IF the skills listed for Familiars are identical to the skill list for Animals, then it's safe to assume that the list is a helpful tool for the standard case (familiar is an animal), not an override (these skills are class skills, regardless of the familiar's creature type).

It's a match:

thegreenteagamer wrote:

The familiar entry says their class skills are Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth and Swim

Animal Rules wrote:

The following are class skills for animals: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim.

It doesn't make sense to take class skills away from an improved familiar.

[Dafydd]

I "think" it is a combination of the 2 lists. IE, all animals keep the animal class skill and gain the familiar skills.

If the familiar is a fey or outsider or whatever, it gains the familiar class skills, in addition to what a normal member of it's kind has.

Not sure if that is right however.

[Lifat]

No clue about RAW. With me as a GM? You would get to combine them and keep all (in this case the familiar skills don't actually add any to the fey, but there might be cases).

[Wheldrake]

Since the rules provide a list of class skills by creature type, it seems eminently logical to use the list corresponding to the improved familiar's creature type. The basic familiar list is obviously predicated on the assumption that familiars are originally of the animal type. Those improved familiars which are of a different type should take their class skills from their specific type, even if the rules neglected to mention this detail.

YMMV.

[Rikkan]

PRD wizard familiar entry:

Quote:

It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.

Quote:

Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.

It keeps its old skills. It does not gain class skills, just treats some skills as if they were (functionally kind of the same, as long as it remains a familiar I guess).

So IMHO, you keep the fey class skills and treat the familiar class skills as if they were class skills.