Please be advised that this thread is for the convenience of the Playtest organizer. As such, it will function best as a repository of distilled observation. If each person who wishes to contribute leaves exactly 1 post, and edits that post to include new ideas they wish to submit, this will prevent information from being repeated by the same poster several times.
Questions regarding these posts would work best in the kineticist general discussion. Comments on another poster's information would likewise be best done in the general thread, though motions to second an idea within your own normal idea post would enable an easy tally of support for ideas. If this thread is kept to these basic premises, it will vastly assist in the search for usable ideas for this class by the designers.
Aetherist using Properties of thrown items:
Drop the damage for TK proportionally to other classes (read:keep it the same when you raise everyone else) and let the properties of a limited use object like alchemist fire work. You paid gold for it, why not? Using a weapon should let you bypass material DR/ as well. If I buy a silver dagger, werewolfs beware because I should be able to TK it into your temple. Magic weapons need not apply, because they usually need to be wielded to function and TK doesn't count. So your +4 Adamantine flaming sword will bypass DR as adamantine but not add flaming dice and a +4 to hit/dmg. Adding a Talent for equipping a Magic weapon as a Dancing Blade that deals the normal damage for said magic weapon but not any blast damage, with a limiter of being a move action to use it or a burn to let it go auto for a while, gives you a way to use that extra awesome magic item the DM rolled up but nobody was feated for.
The only real nasty situations I can think of that can't be balanced out easily is using TK to mix extra planar portals next to enemies, and breaking staffs of fireball over someone's head from outside the danger zone. These get expensive fast as a solution to problems though, and a clever DM that sees characters stocking up on one shot wonders can make nasty little reflex saves on the road.
Ideas for improving fluff and out of combat utility of most elements.:
I'm going to lay out a few ideas here for Kineticists of all elements which I believe would offer the "utility" power many people are looking for. This is based on the idea that the major difference between a level 1 and level 20 kineticist should be quality and speed of doing a given job. I can build a stone fort with my mind at any level, but at level 20 I should be making a really nice little cottage in an hour, at level 1 I can make a lean-to while you go hunt dinner.
Telekinetics
You should start with prestidigitation related to objects moving only as a constant at will free action. Let's face it, prestidigitation literally means "fluff with no use". There is no reason this isn't on all magic users at all times.
Light touch should be free at level 2. If I can throw it across the room I think I can pick it up. Usually this starts small and gets to damaging, not the other way around.
At around 4 I can affect 1/2 my level in objects at the same time, as long as the total weight does not exceed my normal lifting power. Hello juggling in figure 8s.
At 6 or so I can bend or break objects depending on their hardness. If my minimum damage for a normal attack exceeds the hardness of the material, I can reshape it slowly or bend it until it snaps.
At around level 10 I can form a general shape of force. Like a bowl to carry water, a straw, a curve to deflect something, a wall of force, but I need to be able to concentrate on it to keep it up, or drop a point of burn to make it last for 1 min/level after I walk away. If I do that, I can then choose whether it remains positioned relative to me, stationary to the world, or mobile for people to carry around while it exists.
Pyrokineticists
Spark at will. Prestidigitation at will as regards to fire only. (candles bend towards me, because I am the AVATAR!)
At around 2nd level I can ignite, move, or put out fire in 5 foot squares equal to 1/2 my level each round.
At 4 I can comfortably maintain a fire anywhere from a candle sized to a full blown torch anywhere within 30 feet, even in mid air. This gives me a constant torch at will. I can have one of these small fires going for every 4 levels, for a mamaximum of 5 fires at lvl 20. I can take a talent to make these fires combat useful by "attaching" them to a target for burn damage based on the number of fires attached to them.
At 6 I can increase the temperature of an object without necessarily igniting it. This lets me cook food without a position-sharing fire, make metal more maleable, and boil water to clean it.
at level 10 or so I can make shapes out of the fire, such as that of an elemental or a dragon, giving me a cool way to earn gold or trick an enemy with a bluff check.
Geokineticist
prestidigitation regarding earth as an at will constant. If I want to play with a hand full of pebbles while I walk, this is reasonable.
I should always be able to move earth, starting with a full round action to move a five foot square of dirt. At level 2, this is a standard action for dirt, and a full round action for unworked, loose stones. At level 4 this is a standard action for 2 squares of dirt, a standard action for loose stones, and a full round action for solid unworked rock like the side of a tunnel. I can now make basic shapes like a roof that actually holds, stairs, anything an average child with playdough could make. At level 6, a standard action for 3 squares of dirt, 2 squares of rocks, or 1 square of unworked stone. At 8, a move action for 4 squares of any of the above. At 10, I can begin creating more refined shapes like bowls, pots, or walls with narrow windows. The number of squares I can affect as a move action is now 1/2 levels. At 15 I can create detailed pieces such as minor artwork on my walls, carved archways and such. Nothing beyond what you could do with a few hours and a chisel, but it's fluff wise nicer quality housing.
Hydrokineticist
Prestidigitation regarding water. Come on, it's not like it affects anything ever.
at level 2, lets purify water. I can self filter it, big deal. Useful, but not overpowered. At 4, create water, 1 gallon/ lvl. At 6, move 1 5 foot square of water /2 levels as a standard action. At 8th, turn water into ice or ice into water while moving it, same amounts as you can normally move. At 10th, make it a move action to move water or make it ice. Add some basic shapes to your ice.
at 15 add some more complicated shapes to your ice sculptures.
Aerokineticist
frankly, you can't make anything with it. I'm at a loss for better than prestidigitation here that could really scale with level. Possibly always having the wind at your back could improve travel speed for the party when overland marching, predicting weather easily, sailing made easy is highly situational but it's worth a lot when it can be used. Adding block fog/cloud/breath type weapons can be useful. This is the one that I just don't see as many great passive non combat growth abilities for. As such, have fun with that.
Alternate Options for players resistant to burn mechanics:
I can see burn going from a health problem to a damage problem. For each point of burn, lose x damage from Blasts and Composite Blasts. 1-5th level lose 1 damage per burn, 6-10th lose 2 damage per burn, and so forth. Now as you "nova" your damage, you find your abilities nerfed. Eventually you're having to nova just to keep up normal damage at the end of the day if you overuse it. Now you've made yourself practically useless as you've overtaxed your powers, but you haven't made yourself nearly dead to do so.
I still personally like burn as it is, but if anyone wants to check out the Wilder psionic class, they had a choice of how you burned out if you pushed too hard. I can see 3-4 options for different kinds of suck that happen when you accumulate burn. Damage reduced, health reduced, a power pool and you flat can't do it more than x times (which, for having no penalty attached would be less times than the others), and even maybe every time you incur burn you can't use any class abilities for (burn)rounds or (burn)minutes.
by giving options, all of which are severely detrimental, we may find a better agreement for people who aren't happy with it.
An item that allows the kineticist to benefit from enhancement bonuses. Without access to that mechanic, kineticist will always fall behind all the combat focused classes. Physical blasts far more so than touch-based attacks, which already hit on a 2+ by mid-level.
4-6 skill points. The class should be able to function out of combat. Since it has been made clear that damage will not be competitive with existing high DPR builds, this is mandatory.
The class is at least as feat starved as a cleric. Dual focus between melee and ranged makes the lack of bonus feats more painful.
Any selection of utility talents is at the cost of combat ability. The utility remains low even while giving up combat options.
General Class Notes: 4 skill points, full BAB and d10 hit dice. I was waffling on full BAB, but I feel that it doesn't overpower the already-superaccurate Touch blasts in any way while helping to deal with the issues of the non-Touch blasts.
Blasts: All classes have an Elemental Blast that deals 1d6+1/2 Con and another d6 every two levels and a BSP-based blast that deals 1d8+1+Con and another d8 every two levels. Fire gets Bludgeoning, Earth gets Acid, Aether gets Force but their BSP-based blast can no longer use all three elements, and is instead Piercing only. All Kineticsts receive both Blasts of their starting element.
Burn: A feat or Wild Talent should be made available that grants a Burn Pool of 2. If a Kineticist desires, when he suffers Burn he can deduct it from the pool rather than adding it to his Burn total. Burn taken from the Pool applies to his cap on Burn per round, but not his total Burn cap, nor does it affect Feel the Burn in any way.
At level 11, the Burn Pool is increased to 4.
Wild Talents: A Fast Bomb equivalent Talent (worded identically, available at level 6 or 10), a Talent available from level 1 that is identical to the Winter Witch's Unnatural Cold ability, and a Talent available at level 6 that is identical to the Winter Witch's Unearthly Cold ability. These could be pushed back to 6 and 10, but only if the Kineticist gets both types of blasts from the start and all elements have both blasts. More out-of-combat Wild Talents, especially variations on Water Manipulator and a low-level "control your element" style Talent (akin to Light Touch)
Feats: Extra Wild Talent, without the current restriction on the level of talents taken. That restriction is out of line with the other "Extra X" feats that exist, which virtually never place limits on what can be chosen.
Items: A variant of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, probably Bracers or Gloves, that applies to the Kineticist's blasts. Priced equivalent to a weapon.
Clarification: More direct statement that the Kinetic Blast is a Psychic SLA and thus not applicable to Arcane Strike.
Balance: Ride the Blast becomes a Substance Infusion costing 3 Burn. Kinetic Blade/Whip explicitly do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Infusion Specialization can now be applied to Metakinetic abilities. Doing so means picking a single Metakinesis available at the current level, and reducing its Burn by 1 (to a minimum of 1). Metakinetic Master remains as-is but can reduce Burn cost to 0.
All of these at once may be unnecessary-- in particular, I could see the Fast Bombs equivalent with Infusion Specialization (Metakinesis) allowing some overly heavy firepower. However, some are critical. Extra skill points, more utility Wild Talents, the magic weapon equivalent, and a way to bypass elemental resistances/immunities are most important for the class to function both in and out of combat.
Please be advised that this thread is for the convenience of the Playtest organizer. As such, it will function best as a repository of distilled observation. If each person who wishes to contribute leaves exactly 1 post, and edits that post to include new ideas they wish to submit, this will prevent information from being repeated by the same poster several times.
Questions regarding these posts would work best in the kineticist general discussion. Comments on another poster's information would likewise be best done in the general thread, though motions to second an idea within your own normal idea post would enable an easy tally of support for ideas. If this thread is kept to these basic premises, it will vastly assist in the search for usable ideas for this class by the designers.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going to try to go over a variety of points that I'll update over time.
Burn:
Burn is by far the biggest point of contention the class has. The default assumption to stay even close to competitive for accuracy is that a Kineticist is pretty much assumed to be at max feel the burn at all times upon hitting level 3.
This is caused by the needing extra to hit bonuses because the class offers no other method of attaining them and as blasts aren't weapons, enhancement bonuses are a no go. It is also caused by the class having very few defensive options and the defensive wild talents offer burn as an option to max out their protection.
The next issue is that not only is burn psuedo capped by how dangerous permanently lowering your HP is, even if you want to keep burning based on circumstances you can only go up to con + 3 burn. Why does there even need to be a limit here when your HP is your fuel source.
Suggestion 1: Change burn to do damage based off effective spell level of whatever is causing burn. Either change or remove hard burn cap and change feel the burn to work based off total non lethal damage.
As blasts constantly going up in level with you but infusions have static levels I think just using the highest applicable level for the blast should suffice.
This change should allow Kineticists to try to match casters in staying power, something that theoretically is their strong point.
Suggestion 2: Allow burn and its nonlethal damage to be healed outside of combat. Something like 1 Burn restored per minute much like force ward. As this would be something like catching your breath I'd say environmental conditions may slow or prevent this recovery, traveling through a blizzard without endure elements and such.
The only ability that I truly see as becoming broken with either of these changes is Kinetic Healer, but as is I don't like the way it works anyway. Compared a cure light wounds wand it just looks sad, even with it's scaling permanent damage in order to heal is not appealing.
Blasts:
One of many concerns I have with the blasts is the range. Normal spells are categorized into:
Close(25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
I think change default range, extended range, and extreme range to these would help alleviate some issues. I think extended range and extreme range should probably be reworked to not be form infusions anyway. For example, I think there should be a way to increase the range of Torrent or Impale but because they are forms they can't.
It appears this board limits editing posts, whether by a certain time after posting or a number of edits. Either way, keeping info clean like this is still helpful.
Spell Level to Burn Rebalance:
If we decide that x spell level is available at x character level, then there should be 9 groups of talents, not 5. 10 counting 0 level effects.
With that in mind, I happily propose this fix to the burn system to balance it comfortably. When all Talents are asigned an SLA Spell Level, and are only available at the given level, assigning burn becomes a scalable level advantage over other caster classes. You may accept one point of burn to use a talent which you do not currently possess which is at least one equivalent spell level lower than the highest level talent you may currently access. You may accept two points of burn to use a talent of the same equivalent spell level as the highest level of talent you currently possess. You may accept three points of burn to access a power one equivalent spell level higher than the highest spell level you currently possess. You may accept four burn to access a talent with an equivalent spell level two higher than the highest level of spell you normally have access to.
Some talents may offer scalable effects, these talents will include an effective spell level for the advanced abilities to determine burn cost for these enhancements.
You may use a move action to gather energy from around yourself, reducing the total burn of a given spell by 1.
Burn max and damage may need to be adjusted accordingly. This allows you to increase versatility slightly by using a trick you are unfamiliar with but should easily do with very little burn. Then increase versatility by a lot for a moderate amount of burn. Increasing power and versatility by jumping to a whole new spell level is dangerous to your health. Using a move action now means you can use older skills that any competent bender should be able to access, even if you chose not to learn them as talents, for free. This is important I feel for the fluff of the class. A spell caster normally knows how to do only the tricks they practice repeatedly. A proper kineticist should be able to do anything with their mind that they can imagine, provided it is within their power level. Using your mind in a way you aren't familiar with (versatility options for a talent of your level) can result in fighting your own mind a bit and wasting more energy than normal. So this all ties in well with the "my brain does this with no outside help, so with a bit of concentration I can about do anything I want".
Now the best part is that you can balance the spell levels to other classes easily. I can keep up with a sorcerer, with the option to get ahead at the cost of health. I may be one dice or so of damage behind, but get unlimited spells per day to do it with.
Shiroi, those are nice fluff abilities. The aerokineticist could change the strength of winds, with the area affected scaling with level. Or possibly give him the ability to extinguish flames. Maybe condense water out of the air or warm/cool the air (useful for survival type situations). Some kind of feather fall ability, or items he drops float lightly to the ground. Just throwing out ideas, I'm not sure if these are already covered.
Okay, reverse engineering Spell levels again... what if every time you would reach a new level of spells emulation, you get Expanded Element. You can pick to get better in your own and unlock a finer degree of utility mastery in your primary element, or select a new element and add first spell level utility abilities from that. Now we've got a situation where each element is, in effect, a microclass. Do I multi element Pyro at the cost of stunting my Geo abilities? Do I take expanded element Geo all 9 times to be the best earth mover I can be?
Damage with all elements scale with level, but your finer control points and which simple blasts you have access to is based on a choice every few levels.
This allows for a versatile damage type blaster, or a static damage type blaster who's versatility is in options for how to operate, not how to type-match. Or anywhere in between.
Composite Blasts would require mastery level 3, so you can get up to 3 elements to level three and have their own double blast, and mix and match the other two.
Form infusions could work on all blasts, but require x mastery of a given element to unlock them.
Substance still work only on the elements that currently apply to them.
So I get, say, fire mastery 6 and learn explosion form. I can use it with my hydro blast, but I can't add burn to water, or entangle to fire. I can then get water mastery 3 and use spray form with my fire blast.
This also makes separating Cryo and Electro from water and air a bit easier. I can now focus on one side or the other, add lighting to my fire bender for an Azula, and so forth.
I like the idea of managing the Burn in some way or another. One potential way is a burn pool, which could scale with level to help soak up excess burn to keep you from straight dying. A d10 hit die wouldn't hurt either.
Possibly just consider turning the burn requirement down on some of them. Maybe you could get one, 1-point infusion per [insert reasonable time period here; I was thinking per round] for free (which would increase to a more powerful one at higher levels) and then any additional would start to hurt.
Or you could have the burn slowly heal. I know that right now you can't heal burn at all, except for resting, but maybe if there were an extremely limited way to restore that over time. Maybe you could only heal burn equal to 1/4 your level per day, and only out of combat or whatever. Not a LOT, but some. Or maybe you could have a Wild talent that did that, or a feat, or even a spell. I can see that being a Water thing, TBH. Healing and persistence always seemed like a water thing.
Side note, not related to burn, but to overall survivability: Medium Armor proficiency would be nice, too -- maybe you could make it a thing that Earth kineticists gain Heavy armor proficiency, and Wind are restricted to only light, but to compensate can add to their AC through a dodge or enhancement bonus? Either a static one, like the Monk's WIS, or the Kensai Magus archetype, that can spend MP to do so temporarily? Or both?
Also, as a parting note, I completely disagree with anything Shiroi said or will ever say, forever.
Brought from the thread.
Focus on getting the Kineticist to be able to do things they should just know how to do without taking wild talents. Currently I feel like some talents are the equivalent of a feat like "With utter dexterity, you gain the ability to hold a weapon! Benefit: You can wield weapons." Additionally some ideas for Talents that fit with Occult Adventures themes and give Kineticists power over the narrative.
Last night myself and some friends discussed the Kineticist and brain stormed what kind of Wild Talents would make sense mechanically, have Occult flavor, and give the Kineticist some much needed utility.
Fire:
-Through the Flames: You know those scenes in movies where people throw stuff into the fire and see visions? Yeah it's stereotypical, but that could work. Have the talent be a X times per day spell. It's up to Mark which is appropriate, but I think commune, scry, speak with dead, or something may work.
-One that can give your allies Fire Resistance as you make their bodies repel fire.
Water:
-Pretty simple one. You make a mirror of Ice and use it to Clairaudience or scry. Seen it happen in media plenty. Probably limited use per day.
-One to make large bubbles so you can walk your party along the sea floor.
Earth:
-Enter a trance and feel the vibrations through the earth and into bodies. Treat it sort of like radar and let the Kineticist count the number of feat touching the ground and the size of creatures within range. Range extends per level.
-One to make tunnels so you can dig your party to places.
Air:
-Slightly Harder to come up with.
-One idea was that since this element is less closely linked to divination we find some other utility. Maybe something like as long as he concentrates as a standard action every round he and his allies have the effects of Air Walk.
-Another was to "listen to the voice of the wind" by using Divination as a spell like ability. Since Divination gives you " advice granted by the spell can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen." It would make sense for a voice carried by the wind.
Aether:
-Hardest one to come up with.
-A pulse that gives you true seeing and detect secret doors, think like a combination of Radar and Echolocation.
-Instead of replicating a spell effect we came up with a decent idea for a "divination" effect. Your force could "nudge" you in the right direction. Like you meditate and after a while you just feel an attraction to a certain direction until you finish meditating. To help you and a confused party decide where you need to go next.
-Something similar to Air in which as a standard action of concentration you create a wall of force that you can move 30 FT per round. Can be used to block places, for protection, or to levitate your group around. If the wall gets broken then you can't make a new wall until you rest for an hour.
All Elements:
An inborn method to use your element to do basic things. You shouldn't need a wild talent to redirect fire growth or move it from your path. You shouldn't need talents to do basic things like that. Also, when appropriate, scaling energy resistance for your element. Make the energy resist require expanded element to avoid dips. Two blasts, one touch and one standard.
A boomerang blast type wild talent that when you miss a target you can as an immediate action, and 1 burn, make it return to strike the same target one more time.
For what it's worth, I like a lot of what Kestral had to say. The skill points and BAB/HD ideas in-particular. I'm a bit confused about the note on Kinetic Whip/Blade though. Do Kinetic Whip/Blade provoke attacks when you summon them currently?
-If so, that definitely is an issue that I'd like to see get resolved.
I also like all the flavor ideas listed at the beginning of the thread.
For what it's worth, I like a lot of what Kestral had to say. The skill points and BAB/HD ideas in-particular. I'm a bit confused about the note on Kinetic Whip/Blade though. Do Kinetic Whip/Blade provoke attacks when you summon them currently?
-If so, that definitely is an issue that I'd like to see get resolved.
I also like all the flavor ideas listed at the beginning of the thread.
Both talents can be used as part of an attack action or full attack action which are different types of actions than AoA. That being said as of now Whip threatens and lasts till your next turn, so it should provoke attacks of opportunity. Blade on the other hand disappears at the end of your turn, it never explicitly states that it threatens, but it could be interpreted it does threaten on your turn, so if you had way to provoke an AoA on your turn you might be able to get them, but otherwise you don't get AoA with it.
