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So folks, got a bit of a question for you.
One of my players is a bit of an aspiring necromancer and given my propensity for using a lot of baddies in encounters I figure this is going to come up soon.
If the party is attacked by say, a carrionstorm, can he use his command undead (negative channeler) to attempt to gain control of the carrionstorm in its entirity? Its a swarm of something like 2000 little undead crows but per the rules only has like 2HD.
Similarly, if he were to encounter a zombie troop unit (an abstraction to represent 30-60 zombies in a group), should he not be able to control it, or just go off of the HD as if were a single creature?
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Command Undead should work fine as it mimics the Control Undead spell and there's nothing in the Swarm sub-type trait that would make Control Undead not work against a swarm.
I haven't researched the zombie troop unit issue, but if I had to make a decision on the fly as a GM, I'd keep it simple and say he needs to meet the HD of the unit, not individual zombies.
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Command Undead should work fine as it mimics the Control Undead spell and there's nothing in the Swarm sub-type trait that would make Control Undead not work against a swarm.
I haven't researched the zombie troop unit issue, but if I had to make a decision on the fly as a GM, I'd keep it simple and say he needs to meet the HD of the unit, not individual zombies.
I'd argue that works fine on a /this is a giant pile/ basis, but after the initial claiming by control, this leaves him with a huge pile of bog standard zombies.
Its like..
I encounter 30 zombies. I can't fit all that into my pool.
I encounter a zombie troop (who's HD are based off of their CR), I control them, and now I inexplicably have something like 50HD of undead under my command for the cost of a 9HD Troop.
Similarly, if I controlled a carrionswarm consisting of like 2000 undead crows, does this mean I then can peel off 500HD worth of 1/2 HD zombie crows for various purposes (at the cost of a 2HD carrion storm?)?
It gets tricky since the swarm and troops are units built on abstraction, but are actually comprised of entities. Troops, when introduced in Reign of Winter also suggested the troop unit when defeated, broke into something like 1d4 to 1d6 of its individual component creatures (in Reign it was something like 20-30 6th level elite soldiers comprising a CR 11 troop).
If it has rules and acts like a singular creature then it's treated as a singular creature. Swarms will act like the swarm entry. Troops will act like the troop entry. To me troops are like big creature swarms. Don't give benefit or detriments apart fron what the rules say, for example he doesn't have 90hd of zombies he has a 9hd zombie troop and that's it nothing more. In fact troops should be a nice way to represent hordes without them actually being hordes.
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Yeah, but a Troop of living entities can turn into individual entities. A guy who has 4 soldier troops working for him actually has like 240 soldiers under his command.
It strains verisimilitude to not have a horde of them be represented by a horde of them and that's where the weird HD thing comes in.
The world doesn't view 200 goblins as different from 3 goblin troops. They function for all intends and purpose the same outside of how much space they fill and their combat stats.
Admittedly, given that troops are immune to effects that don't effect all of them, and they're represented by 16 blocks of space it might be tough to catch them in a control aura.
That's how swarms work as well but the individual in general doesn't matter, if you treat it as a singular it's a singular. So your 9hd zombie troop is inconsequental as pieces. If you don't like troops, which really do work like swarms, don't use them. Also area shouldn't matter to animate dead just type and hit dice. Command/control might.
This is from the troop listing.
The troop subtype represents an organized group of trained soldiers that act as a unit, rather than as individuals. A troop is something of an abstraction, in that the component creatures that make up the troop are mostly irrelevant; only the troop as a whole matters for the purposes of combat. A troop is similar to a swarm, but is normally composed of Small or Medium creatures. Large groups of Tiny or smaller creatures should use the normal swarm rules.
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This is from the troop listing.
The troop subtype represents an organized group of trained soldiers that act as a unit, rather than as individuals. A troop is something of an abstraction, in that the component creatures that make up the troop are mostly irrelevant; only the troop as a whole matters for the purposes of combat. A troop is similar to a swarm, but is normally composed of Small or Medium creatures. Large groups of Tiny or smaller creatures should use the normal swarm rules.
There's two other things hidden in our lovely Troop subtype though. I'm being argumentative for purposes of us working all this stuff out.
Firstly: Troops have..
Vulnerable to Area Effect Spells: A troop takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area. If a troop is rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage, it disperses and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Would this mean an undead troop unit would suffer a -2 penalty (from vulnerability) against command attempts through channeling?
It again seems odd (typical of RAW) since you'd think it'd be harder to control a larger group of the creatures, and it would mean having a horde of ghouls actually makes them easier to control since they gain vulnerability.
(EDIT: Answered my own second question. Its reform from non-lethal. Undead don't take that. )
I always assumed swarms are controlled by some sort of hive-mind, which is what gives the swarm it´s boni. A necromancer might be able to exploit this. Zombie-troops might work simelar. An intelligent troop gets ist boni from working together, something zobies are not known for. Maybey they also form an exploitable hivemind.
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I always assumed swarms are controlled by some sort of hive-mind, which is what gives the swarm it´s boni. A necromancer might be able to exploit this. Zombie-troops might work simelar. An intelligent troop gets ist boni from working together, something zobies are not known for. Maybey they also form an exploitable hivemind.
The thing is troop units are comprised of basically any conglomeration of small or mediums. Meaning you get stuff like orc troops, ghoul troops, human soldier troops, etc.
If we presume there's like one center 'Braaaaaaains' brain in the zombie troop that might make sense for controlling it. But for me its more a verisimilitude thing.
Swarms are made up of stuff that's generally expressly inconsequential by itself (tiny spiders, fine beetles, etc). Troops are made up of bigger guys and statting a troop (according to the devs) is a function of finding the appropriate CR you want for a troop and backing them into it.
The troops from Reign of Winter are CR 11 'creatures,' but are comprised of 6th level fighters. The adventure path seems to assume you might like mug one, or drag him off, or attack parts of the troop piece meal.
With undead troops, I might say decide to make a CR 7 'Zombie Troop.' I peg its hit points at about CR 7 levels, so probably like 7-10 HD. The troop is however comprised of 20-30 1 HD Zombies.
If I control the troop (which is kind of an abstraction) I can control a larger number with more efficiency then if it was 30 zombies standing around. What bugs me is there's no real reason for the difference aside from stats.
Nothing intrinsically makes something 'a troop' except a stat block and so nothing's to really stop a necromancer player from RAWing control of a troop and then treating it as if he has control of 20-30 zombies (effectively making his control undead feat three times as powerful.)
RAW says 'Yes, Spook, that's how it works.' But I have trouble from the above verisimilitude issue (No, Sir, we're zombies in a /troop/ not just normal zombies) and the fact that the RAW doesn't cover something expressly indicated by the AP that the subtype originated from (parts of the troop breaking off).
Also the fact that folks with turn resistance get /less/ resistant against control or channel attempts when they're with more of their buddies. It seems, weird.
Well, a troops is also supposed to be a trained so structured group in some way.
Do zombies form units when they fight in hordes, like military style, or even like militias?
"The troop subtype represents an organized group of trained soldiers that act as a unit, rather than as individuals."
Two points. Firstly, be careful of spoilers. Some of us are playing RoW and aren't nearly that far.
Secondly, I'd say that a broken troop is no longer a troop. The Command/Control/Dominate/Charm/... was of the troop. That NPC has left the table. If you take over a troop and force it to break up, you've given yourself a much tougher opponent, not a much tougher puppet.
Sidenote, as the arcane of our RoW party, this thread just got really interesting to me.
Have to factory in that if these undead are being controlled by another necromancer or lich or such, then he may be unable to take control of them.
Sorry, meant to say factor there.
Or are they just some random undead?
I'm pretty sure I bolded the important part in my previous post. A zombie troop is just that a singular troop nothing more, no you can't break it up because of my bolded statement in my last post. Troops like swarms don't make it more powerful just more versatile. A zombie away from it's troop is effectively a cr nil, it is functionally nothing as per the troop listing.
As an aside anyone know more percise rules on how to form troops?
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I encounter 30 zombies. I can't fit all that into my pool.
I encounter a zombie troop (who's HD are based off of their CR), I control them, and now I inexplicably have something like 50HD of undead under my command for the cost of a 9HD Troop.And the combat value of a 9HD troop. Important, that. But sure, you have a 9HD troop. Easy enough. If you split them, you have to re-Command them. If you can't... well. Hope you like being zombie-food.
Similarly, if I controlled a carrionswarm consisting of like 2000 undead crows, does this mean I then can peel off 500HD worth of 1/2 HD zombie crows for various purposes (at the cost of a 2HD carrion storm?)?No. *Shrug* Similarly, I wouldn't let you break off pieces of a Swarm that you build via Construct Crafting. It's one entity and has to be used that way.
Alright that looks like the best option here. You control 'the troop' but you have to keep them operating as a 'troop' not as a cheap zombie storage mechanic.
I mostly wanted some good sound arguments to use if my player gets grumbly when I tell him he can't use his control to get a 9HD troop unit to get enough zombies to run a laundry or similar non-combat activities.