The question there is "Does having to concentrate on Detect Magic count as being distracted?"Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.
Perhaps I was getting it mixed up with Spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast in combat, which you cannot take 10 on.
You don't need detect magic up to spellcraft a spell that you see as it is being cast.
He's referring to identifying magic items with Detect Magic, not to identifying spells as they are being cast.
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Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.You are correct. There's a post by a dev/designer that says when using Detect Magic, you are concentrating on maintaining the spell and this prevents you from Taking 10 on any skill check. This would apply to any similar situation where you have to maintain a spell through concentration and are attempting to use a skill at the same time.
That seems like the task at hand to me. The skill check really is part of the spell. Most other instances of concentration and I would agree that it precludes taking 10.
"The task at hand" rule is about the source of the distraction e.g. the fear of falling when trying to climb.
In this case, the source of the distraction is the concentration on maintaining a spell, not identifying the thing that is magic. Detect Magic just allows your Spellcraft to identify other things. But the PC is still having to "concentrate" on maintaining the spell and that has nothing to do with using Spellcraft.
I can see that point of view, I simply disagree. As I see it the skill check is part of the spell and thus the spell is not a source of distraction.
thorin, keep in mind you're doing multiple things. You're concentrated on simply keeping the spell active, you're continuing to feel the presence and strength of auras, and you're also trying to discern the properties of the magic item.
If you want to take 10 on identifying something, you can just cast the Identify spell. No concentration required, unlike Detect Magic.
Rules as Written literally means rules that are written down in the rulebook. A dev's opinion on how to handle a situation is not a rule.
I can see that point of view, I simply disagree. As I see it the skill check is part of the spell and thus the spell is not a source of distraction.The skill check is not part of the spell. One has nothing to do with the other. Simply asserting that they do changes nothing. If you have Detect Magic running Spellcraft simply reveals more information. You're still concentrating on DM regardless of whether you use Spellcraft of any other skill.
You can disagree with it all you want. That ruling is from a dev/designer and is tantamount to RAW.
Since it is an comment from a dev and is not a FAQ, it is an opinion not a rule.
Also, the skill check is listed as part of the spell description. That is why I say that the skill check is part of the spell.
Taking 20 means you continue trying until you get it right, and assumes that you will fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties).
I can see that point of view, I simply disagree. As I see it the skill check is part of the spell and thus the spell is not a source of distraction."The task at hand" rule is about the source of the distraction e.g. the fear of falling when trying to climb.
In this case, the source of the distraction is the concentration on maintaining a spell, not identifying the thing that is magic. Detect Magic just allows your Spellcraft to identify other things. But the PC is still having to "concentrate" on maintaining the spell and that has nothing to do with using Spellcraft.
I agree with you thorin.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
If you keep detect magic up for 3 rounds, you can now use spellcraft to try to identify its properties.
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Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.You are correct. There's a post by a dev/designer that says when using Detect Magic, you are concentrating on maintaining the spell and this prevents you from Taking 10 on any skill check. This would apply to any similar situation where you have to maintain a spell through concentration and are attempting to use a skill at the same time.
Did you know that a post by a Dev/Designer has been shown to me, on the Paizo boards, that also says the exact opposite? That using Detect Magic does not preclude being able to T10 on Spellcraft checks to determine what a magical item is?
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Someone fiddling with a lock is paying it close enough attention that as a GM I'd call for a Perception check to notice the trap. Assuming that check is missed, then on the first 1/20th part of the Take 20 attempt the trap would probably trigger. After its effects have been resolved, you could continue with Take 20.
Suppose instead that you did notice the trap - could you Take 20 then? I think not immediately; first you need to somehow deal with the trap. Only after the trap has been resolved could you Take 20. It's simply "in the way".
Could you Take 10 to open a lock you know to be trapped? I wouldn't allow that; the trap is a separate threat that's distracting you.
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Opening the lock is a separate check from disabling a trap on the lock. It is perfectly reasonable that you might not know there is a trap (failed perception check) and begin trying to open the lock and then set off the trap as soon as you met the activation criteria (perhaps opening the door/chest the lock was on, or maybe as soon as you began tampering with the lock it would go off).
Could you Take 10 to open a lock you know to be trapped? I wouldn't allow that; the trap is a separate threat that's distracting you.
Yes you can.
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Disabling a trap is definitely one of those. If you have a decent bonus, say +12, and you think this trap is probably around DC 20. It makes perfect sense to take 10 on it, and get a 22, and probably succeed, instead of chancing rolling a 1,2 or 3 which would set it off.
Fear should pretty much never qualify as a distraction unless (1) the PC is being affected by a fear effect, or (2) the player of said PC specifically describes the PC as being afraid. Under most normal circumstances, GMs shouldn't be dictating a what the PC is feeling to the player. That's bad form. It also risks allowing the GM to arbitrarily apply bonuses and penalties however he likes.
"You failed to disable the trap because you really had to pee, so the -5 penalty for distraction caused you to fall short of the DC" is one example of how this kind of thing could give the GM too much power and end badly.
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Except that determining what the world around the players is doing, including distracting factors, is exactly the purview of the GM.
While I agree that trying to force feelings and motivations on the players is poor form, it is perfectly within the GM's sphere of influence to determine what environmental stressors are in effect.
Except that determining what the world around the players is doing, including distracting factors, is exactly the purview of the GM.
While I agree that trying to force feelings and motivations on the players is poor form, it is perfectly within the GM's sphere of influence to determine what environmental stressors are in effect.
Sure, but only those that are external to the character.
What I meant was that the trap distracts you from the lock. The trap doesn't distract you from the trap, of course.
That is definitely a borderline case. It can be viewed as the trap is essentially a guy standing over you with a sword as you work on the lock. But on the other hand it is very unlikely that the trap will go off if the lock is opened correctly. Personally I would treat an unresolved trap as an external threat/distraction.
What I meant was that the trap distracts you from the lock. The trap doesn't distract you from the trap, of course.
Ah, I get what you're asking now. If the PC was aware of the trap, they might not be concerned about what it will do. "It looks like a poison needle and i'm immune to poison." or "I'm a rogue with improved evasion, I can dodge it." So, no, I would say they are allowed to decide if they are worried about the trap or not, and could take 10 on just opening the lock, possibly triggering the trap in the process. On the other hand, the trap trigger could be opening the door, which is completely unrelated to unlocking the door. So again, no reason to make the trap force them to not take 10 on the lock.
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I think once you get into "it depends on how this particular lock/trap arrangement is set up" territory, most players would be satisfied. It's the "you can't take 10 unless you can succeed on a 1"/"I'm 'interpreting' T10 such that you'll never encounter a situation where it's actually beneficial" crowd that's the problem.
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I think once you get into "it depends on how this particular lock/trap arrangement is set up" territory, most players would be satisfied. It's the "you can't take 10 unless you can succeed on a 1"/"I'm 'interpreting' T10 such that you'll never encounter a situation where it's actually beneficial" crowd that's the problem.
+1
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By all means, link it.Did you know that a post by a Dev/Designer has been shown to me, on the Paizo boards, that also says the exact opposite? That using Detect Magic does not preclude being able to T10 on Spellcraft checks to determine what a magical item is?Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.You are correct. There's a post by a dev/designer that says when using Detect Magic, you are concentrating on maintaining the spell and this prevents you from Taking 10 on any skill check. This would apply to any similar situation where you have to maintain a spell through concentration and are attempting to use a skill at the same time.
You got a link, too?
If it is to the Deep Understanding thing, from Jason Bulmahn, I don't think it really applies, anymore, since the ability it references changed:
You automatically identify any arcane spell cast within 60 feet of you if it’s on your class’s spell list and you’re of a high enough level to cast it. Whenever you attempt to identify a non-artifact magic item using detect magic, you automatically learn its properties and command words in the first round of the spell (no Spellcraft roll needed), but you can’t automatically determine whether it’s cursed.
By all means, link it.Did you know that a post by a Dev/Designer has been shown to me, on the Paizo boards, that also says the exact opposite? That using Detect Magic does not preclude being able to T10 on Spellcraft checks to determine what a magical item is?Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.You are correct. There's a post by a dev/designer that says when using Detect Magic, you are concentrating on maintaining the spell and this prevents you from Taking 10 on any skill check. This would apply to any similar situation where you have to maintain a spell through concentration and are attempting to use a skill at the same time.
I would like the link also.
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Hmm. I could have sworn you couldn't take 10 on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but nothing in the Spellcraft skill calls that out.
Perhaps I was getting it mixed up with Spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast in combat, which you cannot take 10 on.
I think some GM has problems with that because usually you are concentrating on maintaining Detect magic while identifying a magic item.
I think that that is part of the same task, so it is not distracting.Doing two different tasks at the same time is distracting (let's say, climbing [or other activities that require a skill check] and taking 10 on perception), but, as long as the activities are all related to doing the same thing they shouldn't interfere with each other.
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Rules as Written literally means rules that are written down in the rulebook. A dev's opinion on how to handle a situation is not a rule.It has more authority than anyone else in this forum and he was speaking to the rules. Which specially state that a "distraction" precludes T10 - RAW. Concentrating on something becomes a "distraction" to any other task..by definition.
Citation, please.
I have noticed that often we aren't so precise in recalling thoe Dev post. They are always colored by our interpretation.
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And in fact, the whole point of taking 10, as explicitly stated in the Core Rulebook, is because you "fear a poor roll might fail". If it's something with zero penalty for failure, why would you "fear a poor roll might fail"? No, T10 is specifically intended to keep you from failing when there ARE consequences.
Take 20 is not just Take 10 writ large. The two things have different rules, but many people conflate them.
Thought I'd point out the irony of your position. The idea that the thing being attempted cannot create the distraction...is also a non-FAQ dev post]. So the very rule you're attempting to skirt the issue with is not RAW. By RAW, your GM could rule that the fear of the climb prevents you from Taking 10.
So it's hypocritical to discount one dev post as not a FAQ, and tout another dev post as controlling...when it too is not a FAQ.
While it is in the GM realm to decide that is the case, the player is in charge of all PC actions unless under some game effect. Unless the player is shaken, frightened, panicked, or some other condition to represent the fear, the player is allowed to decide whether their PC is afraid of the climb (and therefore can't take 10) or not.
The GM could even say a paladin who is immune to fear is distracted by the possibility of the fall, however, not many players that I know would continue with such a GM call.
Additionally, the rule is:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 10 is described as an option when you fear a poor roll might fail, which is exactly what happens during climbing. So I do not agree that failure of the skill check is applicable as a "distraction" to prevent taking 10.
Of course the GM can overrule this with a Rule 0, but the players can overrule that with "I quit."
The Tarantula is right.