Feral Combat Training and Natural Spell Combat?

[Iterman]

Feral Combat Training - Prehensile Hair (Combat)
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Natural Spell Combat - Unarmed Strike (Ex)
Benefit: The magus can use his spell combat class feature with a natural attack of his choice. If he does, he gains a +2 bonus on concentration checks. If the natural attack is made with an appendage that would normally hold a weapon (such as a claw attack), the magus cannot wield a weapon in that appendage while making natural attacks with it. If the natural attack is a bite or other attack that does not require a free appendage to make, the magus can use the natural attack in addition to all of the attacks he could make with his melee weapon, if he has one.
A magus can select this arcana more than once. The bonus on concentration checks does not stack. Each time he selects this arcana, he selects another natural weapon. For example, a magus could select this arcana twice, choosing claw attacks and bite attacks. This would allow him to use a full-round action to make all of his claw attacks with his free hand and all of his bite attacks in addition to casting a spell. This arcana otherwise functions exactly like the spell combat class feature.

Would these two feats, used in conjunction, allow you to use both an unarmed strike and prehensile hair during spell combat? I want to use hex strike during spell combat.

[Krodjin]

Is prehensile hair even considered a Natural Weapon?

[Iterman]

Prehensile Hair (Su)
Effect: The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet,

and she can use it as a secondary natural attack

that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand.

The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch’s head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.

I'd say definitely yes.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not really sure what you want to do and why, but I think I should draw your attention to this bit in the equipment chapter of the CRB:

Quote:

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat).

[Zwordsman]

I'm a bi confused at what your asking for..

Prehensile hair already says it's a natural attack. Natural spell combat only says it requires a natural attack. So you only need natural spell combat to use spell combat via the hair, then using a normal weapon.

If you were wanting to use hair for spell combat then punch instead of a normal weapon.. If you have improved unarmed strike you should be able to do it normally as above.

Basically in the original post.. I don't even see why you have Feral Combat Training nor what it's being used for?

[graystone]

He already said it. Hex Strike.

Feral Combat Training: "While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite". He wants to Natural spell combat to hit with a spell, Hex (swift action from Hex Strike) and the hair in a single strike.

[Zwordsman]

ah missed the hex strike bit somehow..
FCT would allow hex strike through hair. and that hair can happen to be used to spell strike.
SO yup, you can combo that.

[Ascalaphus]

Okay, so you use Natural Spell Combat (Prehensile Hair) so that you can use the hair for spell combat, and then Feral Combat Training (Prehensile Hair) so that you can use Hex Strike when you spell combat with your hair.

That works.

[Weirdo]

Iterman wrote:

Would these two feats, used in conjunction, allow you to use both an unarmed strike and prehensile hair during spell combat? I want to use hex strike during spell combat.

You can normally use an UAS during spell combat. It works the same way as spell combat with any other one-handed weapon. If all you want is to hex strike during spell combat you can do that just by punching the target.

Zwordsman and Ascalaphus are correct that both Feral Combat Training and Natural Spell Combat (Prehensile Hair) are necessary if you want to Hex Strike with your hair during spell combat.

[Iterman]

I was told that I could not use UAS since my hand was being used for spell combat.

[Jeff Merola]

Iterman wrote:

I was told that I could not use UAS since my hand was being used for spell combat.

Unarmed Strikes are not just punches. It also includes kicks, headbutts, butt-butts, etc.

[Weirdo]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Iterman wrote:

I was told that I could not use UAS since my hand was being used for spell combat.

Unarmed Strikes are not just punches. It also includes kicks, headbutts, butt-butts, etc.

Normally, yes, but a magus using spell combat is limited to their hands as per the FAQ. For purposes of spell combat, UAS has to be designated as a light weapon in one hand (and the other hand is the casting hand).

To use UAS in spell combat, you must punch with one hand (that is holding nothing) and then cast the spell with your other hand (also holding nothing).

If you are holding a manufactured weapon in one hand, you may not use UAS in spell combat, in which case you do indeed need to use the hair to deliver Hex Strike (since that lets you keep your physical off-hand free for casting).

It's a bit weird that RAW you can't kick someone during spell combat but that's how it works.

[graystone]

Weirdo wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Iterman wrote:

I was told that I could not use UAS since my hand was being used for spell combat.

Unarmed Strikes are not just punches. It also includes kicks, headbutts, butt-butts, etc.

Normally, yes, but a magus using spell combat is limited to their hands as per the FAQ. For purposes of spell combat, UAS has to be designated as a light weapon in one hand (and the other hand is the casting hand).

To use UAS in spell combat, you must punch with one hand (that is holding nothing) and then cast the spell with your other hand (also holding nothing).

If you are holding a manufactured weapon in one hand, you may not use UAS in spell combat, in which case you do indeed need to use the hair to deliver Hex Strike (since that lets you keep your physical off-hand free for casting).

It's a bit weird that RAW you can't kick someone during spell combat but that's how it works.

From natural combat: "If the natural attack is a bite or other attack that does not require a free appendage to make, the magus can use the natural attack in addition to all of the attacks he could make with his melee weapon, if he has one."

He could make his 'melee weapon attack'/unarmed attack and his hair attack because Natural Combat says you can. It has to be a hand, but he has two free hands.

[Weirdo]

Did you quote me because you are you disagreeing with me? I don't think anything I said contradicted that.

EDIT: I see the problem.

Weirdo wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Iterman wrote:

I was told that I could not use UAS since my hand was being used for spell combat.

Unarmed Strikes are not just punches. It also includes kicks, headbutts, butt-butts, etc.

Normally, yes, but a magus using spell combat is limited to their hands as per the FAQ. For purposes of spell combat, UAS has to be designated as a light weapon in one hand (and the other hand is the casting hand).

Jeff seemed to be saying that you could kick etc someone during spell combat, and I was correcting him. Natural Spell Combat allows you to use a non-hand-associated natural weapon, but UAS is NOT a natural weapon and thus Natural Spell Combat does not allow you to deliver an UAS with a kick during spell combat.

The FAQ restricts the magus to their hands (even when using UAS or natural weapons that normally can be hands-free); NSC specifically overrides this case for natural weapons only.

More explanation:

graystone wrote:

He could make his 'melee weapon attack'/unarmed attack and his hair attack because Natural Combat says you can. It has to be a hand, but he has two free hands.

Weirdo wrote:

You can normally use an UAS during spell combat. It works the same way as spell combat with any other one-handed weapon.

Weirdo wrote:

To use UAS in spell combat, you must punch with one hand (that is holding nothing) and then cast the spell with your other hand (also holding nothing).

Two free hands: you can punch something during spell combat. Because it works the same way as spell combat with any other weapon, this does not in any way prevent you from also using your hair during combat if you also have Natural Spell Combat.

The question is whether that's what the OP actually wants, because OP said he was taking this combo in order to use Hex Strike during spell combat. It's possible to use Hex Strike during spell combat without Natural Spell Combat if and only if the OP is not using a manufactured weapon (has two free hands). In that case it's probably easier to skip the hair (not a fantastic weapon for the investment) and just deliver hex strike using the UAS. I am trying to figure out if OP is aware of that option.

However, if OP is also holding a manufactured weapon, he does need to use the hair.

Weirdo wrote:

If you are holding a manufactured weapon in one hand, you may not use UAS in spell combat, in which case you do indeed need to use the hair to deliver Hex Strike (since that lets you keep your physical off-hand free for casting).

1) IF One hand = manufactured weapon then

2) Other hand = spellcasting (spell combat rules)
3) UAS must be delivered with a hand during spell combat (FAQ)
4) No free hand exists for UAS(via 1 & 2)
5) Natural Spell Combat allows hair to be used in spell combat
6) FCT allows hair to deliver hex strike
7) Hair must be used to deliver Hex Strike in spell combat (required by 4, allowed by 5&6)

[Dustyboy]

Hungry ghost monk 4,

take Monastic legacy

white haired witch 1

Magus 15, make sure to take the ki arcana too when you can

You'll be able to take feral combat style, allowing you to use the improved damage of unarmed strike, Whenever you kill something you ragain part of your ki pool, which is your arcane pool... your caster level WILL SUFFER... but.... you'll have infinite spells (Sort of) as a magus of your level.

Now enjoy. make sure you grab matamagic master and all the metamagic feats you can , and focus on a low level spell so that you can replace it easily.

[Jeff Merola]

Weirdo wrote:

Jeff seemed to be saying that you could kick etc someone during spell combat, and I was correcting him. Natural Spell Combat allows you to use a non-hand-associated natural weapon, but UAS is NOT a natural weapon and thus Natural Spell Combat does not allow you to deliver an UAS with a kick during spell combat.

The FAQ restricts the magus to their hands (even when using UAS or natural weapons that normally can be hands-free); NSC specifically overrides this case for natural weapons only.

Yeah, I had forgotten that a magus has to use a hand, for some reason.

[graystone]

You where saying spell combat and natural combat is slightly different. You can't use the hair with just spell combat. Just clarifying a bit.

[Bladelock]

FCT allows you to use spell combat with your hair
FCT also allows you to use hex strike

If you only want to use spell combat then Natural Spell Combat is all you need. I'm not seeing why you would need both.

I played a Hex Magus build like this before and loved it. So cool, and surprisingly effective when you are able to use it with Ice Tomb.