dual weild attacks.

[Daiyang]

hey,

im sure theres another post like this, but i need a quick answer on a fullattack bonuses/penalties.

rogue, 15 lvl. dual weild short swords.
20 dex(+5)
feats: two weapon fighting, improved and greater!

can u plz help with the penalties?
forget other factors and magic weaopons, just a simple full attack. = 6 attacks (3 main + 3 off hand)

the twf feats are clear on penalties, but im asking if the -2 from twf feat is added to -5 and -10 of itwf and gtwf?

thx

[Stikye]

quick math check, correct me if I'm wrong.

Level 15 rogue,
BAB ~ +11/6/1
Dex +5
standard non magical short swords +0
Two weapon fighting with 2 light weapons -2-2

Full attack:
11(bab)+5(dex)-2(TWF)(first attack) 11(Bab)+5(dex)-2(two) (2nd hand)
6(bab) + 5(bab) -2(twf)(third) 6(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (4th attack)
1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (5th) 1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (last)

For a grand attack scheme of : 14/14/9/9/4/4 at 1d6 + str/half str pending feats.

[Daiyang]

Stikye wrote:

quick math check, correct me if I'm wrong.

Level 15 rogue,
BAB ~ +11/6/1
Dex +5
standard non magical short swords +0
Two weapon fighting with 2 light weapons -2-2

Full attack:
11(bab)+5(dex)-2(TWF)(first attack) 11(Bab)+5(dex)-2(two) (2nd hand)
6(bab) + 5(bab) -2(twf)(third) 6(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (4th attack)
1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (5th) 1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (last)

For a grand attack scheme of : 14/14/9/9/4/4 at 1d6 + str/half str pending feats.

ok, but as u see the feat add more penalties to the attacks.

Improved two-weapon fighting benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
and
Greater two-weapon fighting benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.

*meaning the 2nd offhand gets a -5 and the 3rd -10, and its base attack bonus(+11). the -2 only applies to main hand attacks and 1st offhand.

until now i was playing it like this:
14/14/9/11/4/6
11(bab)+5(dex)-2(TWF)(first attack) 11(Bab)+5(dex)-2(two) (2nd hand)
6(bab) + 5(bab) -5(twf)(third) 11(bab) + 5(dex) -5(itwf) (4th attack)
1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (5th) 11(bab) + 5(dex) -10(gtwf) (last)

[Bob Bob Bob]

I think Stikye has the right of it. Two-weapon fighting says

Two-weapon Fighting wrote:

...When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand...

Adjusted as appropriate for the feat, light weapons, etc. Improved two weapon fighting just says

Improved Two Weapon Fighting wrote:

Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

It doesn't say you replace or remove the penalty from two-weapon fighting, just that you can make another attack at a -5 penalty. Since the attack is still an "off hand" attack you still take all the penalties from two-weapon fighting, which in your case is -2.

[Bandw2]

the to-hit penalty that improved and greater twf are talking about only apply to your off-hand attacks, which use your full BAB, so they basically just have their BAB lowered down to normal levels for a iterative attack.

so if with one weapon you would do

13, 8, 3

TWF will do

11,11,6,6,1,1

[Claxon]

Daiyang wrote:

*meaning the 2nd offhand gets a -5 and the 3rd -10, and its base attack bonus(+11). the -2 only applies to main hand attacks and 1st offhand.

until now i was playing it like this:
14/14/9/11/4/6
11(bab)+5(dex)-2(TWF)(first attack) 11(Bab)+5(dex)-2(two) (2nd hand)
6(bab) + 5(bab) -5(twf)(third) 11(bab) + 5(dex) -5(itwf) (4th attack)
1(bab) + 5(dex) -2(twf) (5th) 11(bab) + 5(dex) -10(gtwf) (last)

Yeah, thats completely incorrect.

Stikye is correct, or at least his math all seems to be correct.

[Stikye]

Two weapon fighting is like power attack, once you turn it on, it affects the rest of the attacks you do for that round. Unsure if it would affect attacks of opportunity.

[Chess Pwn]

it doesn't affect attacks of opportunity. It only lasts during your full-attack action.

[Claxon]

Allow me to expand on what I said earlier too. The penalties for the additional attacks are in additional to any other applicable penalties for your attacks your make that round.

If you weren't using a light weapon in your off-hand you would have a -4 penalty on all your attacks, instead of the -2 you have on all of them. If you used power attack on your attacks it would apply a scaling penalty to your to hit rolls as your BAB increased. But your basic assertion is that the additional attacks granted by those feats only have that 1 static penalty. Can you understand where that is incorrect?

Those feats are basically meant to give you iterative attacks such that assuming you have two identical weapons your bonus to hit will be exactly the same with both weapons.*

*You will notice your first main-hand iterative attack is at a -5 and your second main-hand iterative attack is at a -10.