Hey all! Thanks for stopping by :)
So I'm trying to make a high level wizard. I've picked Divination for my school, grabbed an (improved) familiar, and muddling my way through the remainder of choices to be made. Having never done an arcane user in pathfinder (or D&D for that matter) I had three questions I was hoping to spring on you fine folks.
The big issue I'm worrying over is the DC for saves and touch attacks. The game she'll be jumping into has saves of 30+, and I'm having a hard time finding ways to raise her DC's to compete. There's spell focus and greater spell focus, and...nothing else? Really? Touch AC is overly high in this game, so I'm not sure if spells targeting that are even viable. Still, I'm open to ideas.
The next question I wanted to ask: I know a wizard can learn new spells from copying them from spell books and the like. Is there a way to 'buy' access to a wizard's spell book or something to gain new spells? How would that work?
The last is easy to ask, impossible to answer. Like many before me, I find spell selection is especially intimidating. As one topic on the front page already asks, it's tricky finding low level spells that stay relevant at high level. Not that deciding between high spells is any easier... oy. I'm reading two guides for suggestions as is, and this is still pain. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not crazy as to ask for someone to pick every spell for me, if that makes sense. More like, if you have a 'top five' spells you never leave home without, I'd appreciate getting other opinions.
Thank you for your time!
For save the first thing to do is to boost your INT. Get the best headband you can afford, and maybe look into getting a tome of clear thought. The feat Heightened Spell will allow you to increase the DC for spell by using a higher level slot. Assuming you start out with a 18 INT, put all level ups into INT, have a +6 headband and acquire a +5 tome your DC for a 9th level spell is going to be 31. If you are willing to take some age penalties on your stats you can get it up a little higher. Be careful of doing that because you end up getting twice the penalty to physical stats as the bonus you get on your mental stats.
In games I run if a wizard is starting out higher level and wants extra spells I have him pay as if he bought the spell on a scroll.
The nice thing about the wizard is that he can have potentially unlimited number of spells. A sorcerer has to be very careful in his selection of spells because he has a limited number. With a wizard you don’t face that so the need for spells to level up is less crucial.
Also, spell focus and greater spell focus duplicate their bonus to DC through Spell Perfection.
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You're in for a lot if you've never made a caster before. If you could I'd recommend a sorcerer, as it would make spell selection easier and you wouldn't need to pick spells in the morning.
I haven't played much above 6th-7th level spells, but I'll give some quick advice. You should also look at some of the wizard guides out there, though they might not have the latest info.
Alternatively, the "Fast Study" arcane discovery is really nice for general utility spells (out of combat). You'll have plenty of slots to leave one or two open for most of your spell levels.
Don't neglect to Scribe your scrolls when you can. They're great for those spells you don't often want, but it's really useful when you do. Buffs/utility/control spells, or ones without saving throws, are best.
Feats... quicken spell is important (a metamagic rod for it is good too). You could also consider extend, persistent, empower, or maximize depending on what you want to do. Also, Reach Spell is GREAT for those mass touch buff spells (like Communal energy resistance). Also works on a rod. Wizards are generally better off with metamagic rods. Sorcerers can make use of the feats on the fly, which is a little easier. Spell Perfection is an amazing feat, and would help boost your DC from spell focus. Pick a spell that's widely applicable. If you're a controller/debuffer, Slow, Bestow Curse, Glitterdust if you're a controller. I have less suggestions for a blaster. There are many other options, too. Craft feats can also be useful to get gear cheaper (like those metamagic rods). "Craft Wonderous Item" has the widest variety of items. Spell Penetration is also very good, as you'll likely see lots of SR. If you like summoning, Augment Summons and Superior Summoning are useful. There's also "Academae Graduate" that lets you cast them as a standard action, though you'll likely fatigue yourself doing so. Carry around some potions of Lesser Restoration for after the fight. Lower-level summons can also be useful to scout/poke things/distract things/etc. Grab the elemental languages if you can so you can talk to elements you summon. There's a "Summon Monster Guide" to pathfinder on the net that I love to use when I summon. Oh, be sure to grab the "Opposition Research" arcane discovery. It basically gives you back one of your opposition schools. True Name can be very useful if your GM allows it, but it's also risky.
Don't forget costly material components/foci. Some of those spells off the top of my head: Contingency, True Seeing, Stoneskin, Wish/Limited Wish, Animate Dead (and variants), most or all Symbol spells, Scrying, Permanency, Magic Jar... and others I'm sure.
Speaking of, Contingency and Permanency and classic high-power wizard spells. Permanent Arcane Sight/See Invisibility are great, and darkvision/comprehend languages can also be useful. One contingency I like is Protection from Energy when hit by acid/cold/fire/electric damage over 15-20HP (to avoid triggering it on a candle or something). There are whole thread devoted to contingency ideas.
I really like Divination (knowledge is power), but it can be tricky to choose spells sometimes. Detect Scrying lasts all day and is an important defense at high levels. Named Bullet can be useful (bows/gun have high crits). I really like Prying Eyes as an all-day spell, you can send them ahead/in small places as needed. Arcane Eye is similarly useful. Greater Scrying can help you locate/monitor lost party members. Have everyone give you a snip of hair or something, since they might not know to voluntarily fail your save. Locate Object/Locate Person are also handy. Anticipate Peril is a nice 1st level spell for a diviner, as is True Strike. Moment of Prescience (8th lvl) is great because it lasts all day. Ask your GM about Foresight (the 9th level divination spell). As written, it does barely anything, but the text suggests it should also have some unwritten effects (guiding your decisions and whatnot). There are some old threads on the spell from 3.5 if you search the net.
Some spells have long durations and can be "all day" buffs you cast in the morning, especially if you use Extend Spell feat. Mage armor, false life, overland flight, Moment of Prescience, Contingency (days per level), Detect scrying, Veil (if needed), Statue. And others I'm sure.
Booting your INT is the best way to increase spell DCs. Get a +6 INT headband, and grab a +5 inherent bonus from either a Tome of Clear Thought or 5 castings of Wish (slightly cheaper). Beyond that, spell focus, and spell perfection, and some racial abilities I can't recall other boosts at the moment. Oh, Heighten Spell can boost DCs using a higher level slot, and Persistent Spell makes them save twice, which is awesome.
I don't have time to write out much else (check out some guides), but I'll spit out some spells that are either commonly known or useful at times. Trying to go from lower spell level to higher:
Grease, Feather Fall, Liberating Command, Silent/Minor/Major Image, Glitterdust, Create Pit (and variations), Enlarge Person (great when quickened, or the Mass version if you have a few targets who'd benefit), Aqueous Orb, False Life, Fireball, Snowball, Magic Missile (force damage is great for ghosts), Charm Person/Monster, Communal Resist Energy, Fly, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Dragon's Breath (versatile), Echolocation (scroll), See Invisibility, True Seeing, Phantasmal Web, Wall of Ice, Wall of Stone, Fog Cloud, HEROISM (great buff) Emergency Force Sphere (cheesy but effective), HASTE (maybe with the familiar on a wand, it's just that useful), Slow, Teleport, Cone of Cold, Blur, Mirror Image (possibly quickened), Displacement, Mislead, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, Nondetection, Stoneskin (for the fighter), Invisibility, Greater Invisibility (if anyone has sneak attack), Enervation, Boneshatter, Stone Shape (utility), some kind of spell for a shelter to rest (Mage's Magnificant Mansion, Rope Trick, Secure Cottage, etc. Leave a slot open and just prepare this at the end of the day), Cloudkill, Icy Prison, Sending, Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion (no save), Plane Shift, Fickle Winds, Life Bubble (can't tell you how often this has saved my party and ticked off the GM!), Telekinesis (fun, long range), Chains of Light (no SR), Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic, Sirocco (something I personally like to combine with quickened Black Tentacles or an illusion spell to keep enemies in the area long enough for exhaustion to set in), Flesh to Stone, Stone to Flesh, Spell Turning, Spell Immunity, Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill, Forcecage, Prismatic Spray/Wall (fun), Etheral travel spells, Statue (great buff, technically stacks with Stoneskin but ask your GM), Mind Blank, Maze (no save), Irresistible Dance, Wall of Force, Horrid Wilting... now for a few 9th level spells: Mage's Disjunction, Time Stop, Wish, Gate, Dominate Monster, Shades, Weird, Mass Suffocation (Fort saves are usually high though), Energy Drain...
and that's not even touching on the many utility spells available to wizards. I don't usually play blaster-types so I don't have as many tips on direct damage spells. It's important to have a few of those though, when you just need to kill things.
Wow this is a long post... time for bed.
not edit - I'm sure this has been ninja'd by now
edit - yep
Oh, nice finds!
I had missed how spell perfection increased with Spell focus, so that's a plus. And the profane pact bonus is quite clever, too. I'll run the 'scroll cost for a spell added' thing by the DM, but it makes sense to me.
Special Kudos to Paulicus for the long post and spell ideas! I'm really liking the spells without saves, like the waves of fatigue/exhaustion. I've been hoping to find spells like that, either that have no save, or even if you save you still take a penalty of some kind.
I'm going to keep at it, see what I can do. Hopefully I can make some progress on this today.
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This is nice for me to. Got a friend who wants to run a level 17 module, and I've been hoping to reserve the wizard player spot... this is very useful. I'll post up my builds this weekend (one a void wizard, the other an arclord of Nex)
Definitely check with the GM about buying spells. Some might give you some extra free ones. Some might generate a random list that you have access to (via 'found' spellbooks), some might not care, some might let you do it for the "share an NPC spellbook" cost in the book, and some may require scroll cost.
Personally, I'd do the 'found' + scroll cost, or a few free and scroll cost if I was in a hurry.
I wouldn't worry *too* much about Save DCs and Touch AC - some may be in the 30's, but others are probably in the teens on the same creature. Plus make sure to choose some spells that have partial effects (typical evocations, disintegrate, or even fear spells (usually shaken on success)).
One thing that can help with the saving throws is to make sure you have spells that target all three saving throws. Very few creatures have good saves in all three categories. Being able to target a creature’s weak save is often the best way to affect creatures. Also keep in mind that Reflex saves are usually the least important. Reflex spells are usually direct damage spells which are often less effective especially at high level. Will saves are probably the most effective because they often allow you to control the enemy. Fortitude saves are usually incapacitate or kill type spells.
Another concern for high level casters is spell resistance. If you can’t get past the spell resistance then the save does not matter. A lot of high level creatures have decent spell resistance. Spell penetration, and greater spell penetration are just as important if not more so then spell focus.
Summoning is also a good tactic that ignores saves and AC. Sometimes the easiest way to deal with something is to summon up something else to deal with it for you. The summon monster spells are some of the most versatile spells in the game. Augment Summoning is great, and is almost considered a feat tax on a summoning focused caster.
If you have not already done so make sure to read Treantmonk’s guide to Wizards. While it only covers the core rule book the idea presented in it are still valid. Often the best thing you can do with your spells is to buff your allies. At high level casting haste on your party is going to do a lot more damage than a fireball. A fire ball will do 10d6 damage which averages about 35 HP before save, if it makes the save which it probably will this drops down to 17. This is assuming you get past spell penetration and it does not have fire resistance. Haste on the other hand means the paladin and barbarian get an extra attack at full BAB, a bonus to AC and reflex save and additional movement. Haste will also probably last for the duration of the fight so that is one extra attack per creature per round, or you could do between 0 -35 HP to each creature in the blast radius.
WARNING: Incoming Long post! You've been warned!
Well, it's taken me a LOT longer than I expected, but I have the semblance of a build together. I had to reduce her level to 17 (with the promise she'll catch up to 20 FAST) but I was able to boost her INT to 46(!) so I can't complain.
So I made her school Divination as the school bonus was too nice to ignore. I'm currently using Necromancy and Illusions as her opposed schools.
Many of the other spells are utility/support; from low level ant haul to mind blank. Sleet storm blocks vision, irresistible dance can force an opponent out of the battle a bit, and limited wish states it allows 'a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw" (which makes me wonder what wish would if you asked for one attack to hit, or to ensure a spell get through SR/saves...). She won't be blasting (only one chain lightning in case of EXTREME minions) but should make things interesting if I understand half the rules as well as I think do lol.
Her 'forced to fight' signature move is going to be 'polymorph any object.' I've taken spell focus and the greater, spell penetration and the greater, spell perfection, etc, to give it every advantage possible. For more help, I applied 'magical lineage' and persistent metamagic to it, to make it a level 9 spell (higher save) and make the opponent roll twice. When it NEEDS to hit, I have an improved familiar to use a scroll/wand to lower an opponent's save (limited wish, crushing despair, prediction of failure, etc) followed by a quickened spell from myself. All together, little should have a chance.
Anywho, here's what I have so far:
(don't mind my notes; *means it's a divination spell)
Spells memorized:
0 Level: 5, 1, Read Magic
*Read Magic
*Detect Magic
Penumbra evok
spark evok
prestidigitation uni
scoop evok
Acid Splash conj
1st Level: 9, 1
*Heightened Awareness
Heightened Awareness
identify div
detect secret doors div
protection from Evil abj
protection from Evil abj
unseen servant conj
Ant Haul trans
Ant Haul trans
Ant Haul trans
2nd Level: 9, 1
*Blood Transcription
2 slots: mirror image ill
knock trans
Glitterdust conj
protective penumbra evok
pilfering hand evok
pilfering hand evok
touch of idiocy ench
touch of idiocy ench
3rd: Level: 8, 1
*Tongues
Phantom Steed abj
Sleet storm abj
Sleet storm abj
Sleet storm abj
haste trans
haste trans
burrow trans
Extended Fox’s Cunning trans
4th Level: 8, 1
*Detect Scrying
Dimensional anchor abj
Dimensional Door Conj
emergency force shield evok
emergency force shield evok
emergency force shield evok
emergency force shield evok
emergency force shield evok
greater make whole trans
5th Level: 8, 1
*Telepathic Bond
2 slots: Extended Greater Invisibility ill
2 slots: Extended Greater Invisibility ill
Life Bubble abj
overland flight trans
telekinesis trans
Feeblemind ench
6th Level: 8, 1
*True Seeing
Contingency evok -
Chain Lightning evok
Disintegrate trans
Disintegrate trans
Conjure Black pudding conj
Conjure Black pudding conj
Threnodic Feeblemind ench
Threnodic Feeblemind ench
7th Level: 6, 1
*Greater Scrying
Greater Teleport conj
Greater Teleport conj
Plane Shift conj
Plane Shift conj
Limited Wish Uni
Limited Wish Uni
8th Level: 5, 1
*Moment of Prescience div
Moment of Prescience div
Irresistible Dance enchant
Irresistible Dance enchant
mind blank abj
mind blank abj
9th Level: 4, 1
*Divination
Time Stop trans
persistent polymorph any object trans
Mage’s Disjunction co
Prismatic Sphere abj
My lingering questions:
Right now, my opposition schools of necromancy (which I've taken no spells from) and Illusion (witch I have three). I could opposition research to get one back, but is it worth it? I can see myself needing necromancy down the line when needing spells like trap the soul and/or soul bind (which I still can't tell which is better) for dealing with big baddies, and needing two level nine slots for that seems painful, where I am not losing much for Illusions. Good idea, bad idea?
Polymorph any object has so many uses, it's insane. I mean, I can't find any reason why I couldn't polymorph a mountain into gold, and be wealthy beyond my wildest dreams for the entire game. Does this spell have ANY limitations?
As suggested by others, I grabbed improved familiar so it can use UMD for me. Still, I'm not sure how this works in practice. Most things Iv'e read say 'it works' but don't give details on how. For a lawful evil character, I'm liking the Shadow Drake, but I have no idea how it would use a wand, scroll, etc.
I was initially going to use feeblemind over polymorph any object, but like the later as it's more versatile. I like feeblemind and still have several castings of it (even with metamgic to hit undead which we face a lot) but not sure if I should replace some of them now that I'm not focusing on it. Ideas?
whew! Long enough for you? :) I'm open to comments, critiques, etc. I haven't posted everything here as this is already super long. If I missed something super vital, let me know. Thanks for your time!
Oh wow, how did I not notice that line about the value? I feel silly now. I suppose you could get around it if you wanted to make money off of it (I'm sure someone would buy statues, dragon eggs, or who knows what else) but good to know they gave it some limits.
As for the familiar, the part that confuses me the most is how does it 'use' the wand? I mean, how's it going to pass a UMD check to activate it?
Ah, so that's how they use wands, got it. That helps a lot.
As for fox's cunning, I wrote it there to consider using it with the Idealize arcane discovery; at level 20 it would give me a +8 bonus, 2 higher than any headband. I did take a headband as the spell doesn't last forever. Not sure if it's worth it, honestly, but it was another option I was considering.