Barbarian weapon enhancement choices

[Undone]

So Gargrim my PFS barbarian is coming up on an interesting choice. His weapon enhancements are 3 that he wants. He is a reach dwarven barbarian with superstitious and such and has a huge damage modifier.

The EVENTUAL weapon will be a +2 Furious, Courageous, Fortuitous Dwarven Longax (Or up to +4 Furious, Courageous, Fortuitous if he get's that high of level).

The question is which enhancements should be prioritize?

Furious - The big draw here is that +2 to hit and +2 damage is nice but it breaks DR of cold iron and silver while raging (Always). It also accelerates the path to Courageous which is a boss enhancement with furious

Fortuitous - This almost by itself makes charging gargrim nigh impossible. Two attacks (granted one at -5) hitting would mean they take 2d12+40 (Or more), something not much could survive.

Courageous - This with furious is insane since at a +4 total weapon you get +2 saves, +2 hit (With ioun stone), +2 Rage stats exct. It doesn't function as well with Fortuitous.

So order...

Furious>Courageous>Fortuitous
Fortuitous>Furious>Courageous
Furious>Fortuitous>Courageous

Those are the three potential orders. I'm currently stumped as to which would be best. I have a tiny leaning toward fortuitous because it seems interesting.

[Claxon]

Fortuitous is actually a pretty worthless enchantment. First you have to get an AoO on an enemy and you can only use the second possible AoO against that same enemy, and you don't automatically get the second AoO they still have to do something to provoke from you. It's rare that creatures are going to perform an action that will provoke, much less twice in the same round. Besides which, if you want to take advantage of AoOs just pickup Combat Reflexes. Assuming you are a standard 2 handed weapon barbarian build you have plenty of feats to spend so it's honestly better off that way than tacking on extra expensive enchants.

Furious is strictly better earlier on than Courageous. Furious increase the effective enhancementbonus of the weapon. A Courageous weapon only becomes particularly good when you can get to a point of getting more than a +1, which doesn't occur until weapon enhacement is +4. Before then you would get +1 to strength and con from it and that's about it. And you get +2 attack and damage from furious basically all the time (since it functions whenever you are raging).

So my answer is +1 Furious to +2 Furious, then add Courageous, and never add Fortuitous.

[Drogos]

In pfs, I've got a 12 rage prophet carrying a +2 Furious, Courageous adamantine falchion, and that was about all i could afford while also investing enough to survive. Furious is your first enchantment. Courageous is great if you're raging more in combat than you aren't. And if you are using courageous, you want an even number. Then I'd advise if you have the money, then get fortuitous, but that would be the last one I'd do.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

Fortuitous is actually a pretty worthless enchantment. First you have to get an AoO on an enemy and you can only use the second possible AoO against that same enemy, and you don't automatically get the second AoO they still have to do something to provoke from you. It's rare that creatures are going to perform an action that will provoke, much less twice in the same round. Besides which, if you want to take advantage of AoOs just pickup Combat Reflexes. Assuming you are a standard 2 handed weapon barbarian build you have plenty of feats to spend so it's honestly better off that way than tacking on extra expensive enchants.

Quote:

This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. A fortuitous weapon grants the wielder more attacks of opportunity. Once per round, when the wielder of a fortuitous weapon hits with an attack of opportunity, he can make a second attack of opportunity with this weapon against that foe at a –5 penalty.

I just want to point out that's not the case at all. Once you hit with an AOO you get an iterative attack. It's limiting factor is both attacks MUST hit for the enchantment to do anything.

Claxon wrote:

Furious is strictly better earlier on than Courageous.

I'm aware of that.

Claxon wrote:

Furious increase the effective enhancementbonus of the weapon. A Courageous weapon only becomes particularly good when you can get to a point of getting more than a +1, which doesn't occur until weapon enhacement is +4. Before then you would get +1 to strength and con from it and that's about it. And you get +2 attack and damage from furious basically all the time (since it functions whenever you are raging).

So my answer is +1 Furious to +2 Furious, then add Courageous, and never add Fortuitous.

I think you've misread fortuitous but that was my original version of the weapon prior to fortuitous which will definitely be added to my weapon eventually.

[Claxon]

Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

That is how fortuitous works. I'm really not sure where you got it functioning like bad combat reflexes.

Or I'm reliant on simply... using a reach weapon... and going for the guy at the front. All the others provoke on their way toward me.

It's really rare (Large tall and huge creatures) to see a creature not provoke from a reach weapon unless they cast.

[Claxon]

Undone wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

That is how fortuitous works. I'm really not sure where you got it functioning like bad combat reflexes.

Or I'm reliant on simply... using a reach weapon... and going for the guy at the front. All the others provoke on their way toward me.

It's really rare (Large tall and huge creatures) to see a creature not provoke from a reach weapon unless they cast.

Or unless they just 5ft step, or use acrobatics, or ignore you and attack someone else.

[aceDiamond]

Or you pick up Unexpected Strike and rage cycling.

[Claxon]

aceDiamond wrote:

Or you pick up Unexpected Strike and rage cycling.

I mean possibly, but my main point is that fortuitous just isn't that good in my opinion. We can counter back and forth all day about how to avoid and cause AoO. My experience with my group is that there a very few AoO provoked by the enemy and by the time you can do things such as rage cycle for unexpected strike or be permanently large the enemy can do the same thing or has counters for it.

Fortuitous is too situational in my book to be consistently good, and isn't better than a flat enhancement bonus on the weapon. I would definitely make sure I have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon before I considered adding Fortuitious. Personally, I'd end up with a +4 Furious Courageous weapon before I considered adding anything else, though you couldn't ever afford that in PFS.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

aceDiamond wrote:

Or you pick up Unexpected Strike and rage cycling.

I mean possibly, but my main point is that fortuitous just isn't that good in my opinion. We can counter back and forth all day about how to avoid and cause AoO. My experience with my group is that there a very few AoO provoked by the enemy and by the time you can do things such as rage cycle for unexpected strike or be permanently large the enemy can do the same thing or has counters for it.

Fortuitous is too situational in my book to be consistently good, and isn't better than a flat enhancement bonus on the weapon. I would definitely make sure I have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon before I considered adding Fortuitious. Personally, I'd end up with a +4 Furious Courageous weapon before I considered adding anything else, though you couldn't ever afford that in PFS.

Unexpected strike is on my list of RP to take.

Additionally as I explained in another thread... pushing assault buys you AOO's.

Spoiler:

Monster M
You Y
X=Free space
XXXXX
XYXXM
XXXXX

Monster charges, charge negated because forced movement negates mid action charges.
Monster Approaches normally, you just take a normal AOO and get power attack damage.

If monster approaches after the 5 foot step away.
XXXXX
YXMXX
XXXXX

You now hit the monster and pushing assault it to the following positions
XXXXX
YXXMX
XXXXX

The monster is now back in the original predicament and must take an additional AOO to approach you. You get an AOO (Or TWO with fortuitous EVERY single round they come after you.)

Its extremely strong but requires using something similar to the above.

You almost always get 1-2 AOO's a combat when using the above and a reach weapon. For the purposes of defeating an encounter is it better to make a total of 4 attacks or 3 attacks at a better bonus?

I was under the impression that from an optimization perspective +1 hit would do more than +2 to hit and damage.

[Claxon]

Undone wrote:

I was under the impression that from an optimization perspective +1 hit would do more than +2 to hit and damage.

That is very heavily dependent on exactly what your to-hit value and target AC is as well as damage. You could do the calculation for DPR assuming 3 possible attacks a round versus 4 possible attacks for instance.

This would mean a BAB of between 6 and 10, for one regular, one iterative and one attack of opportunity versus the same + 1 AoO at -5 to hit. You can then see exactly how much that would increase yuor average DPR per round under each case. Now, the second case should be more damage because having an extra attack clearly does more damage under most cases, but you also have to keep in mind the cost of the weapon enhancement and how often you will get AoO and also the consideration of how much damage it requires to kill/drop an enemy.

Also keep in mind a +2 Furious Courageous weapon will bypass DR admantine (IIRC) as a +4 weapon which a +1 Furious Courageous Fortuitous weapon will not.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

Undone wrote:

I was under the impression that from an optimization perspective +1 hit would do more than +2 to hit and damage.

That is very heavily dependent on exactly what your to-hit value and target AC is as well as damage. You could do the calculation for DPR assuming 3 possible attacks a round versus 4 possible attacks for instance.

Good idea. I will do this. I used the above example because I'll soon (In like one day) have 6 BAB and the item. The bonuses to hit after level up are +14/+9 with 1d12+20 (22 with witch hunter) damage with 2 AOO at +14/+9 verses +16/+11 with 1d12+22(24) damage with one +16 1d12+22 damage AOO.

CR 6 normal mobs have 19 AC average and 70 HP CR 9ish Boss monsters will have 115 HP and AC 23. I'm not entirely sure how to calculate it but eyeballing it both kill an at level creature pretty definitively. Neither kill a CR 9 in one turn because average damage before factoring in the 60%/35% chance to hit would only be 4d12+80 for only 103 average. In terms of DPR it appears fortuitous does more damage but the vastly decreased to hit over so many hits. Against higher AC furious might win out.

Claxon wrote:

This would mean a BAB of between 6 and 10, for one regular, one iterative and one attack of opportunity versus the same + 1 AoO at -5 to hit. You can then see exactly how much that would increase yuor average DPR per round under each case. Now, the second case should be more damage because having an extra attack clearly does more damage under most cases, but you also have to keep in mind the cost of the weapon enhancement and how often you will get AoO and also the consideration of how much damage it requires to kill/drop an enemy.

AOO's occur often enough. I believe out of four combats last night when we played I got 5. Does furious increase damage more if you have haste or combat goes long.

Claxon wrote:

Also keep in mind a +2 Furious Courageous weapon will bypass DR admantine (IIRC) as a +4 weapon which a +1 Furious Courageous Fortuitous weapon will not.

This is probably the biggest compulsion to go furious. Courageous is so much more damage at higher levels.

Just eyeballing it both are roughly the same in terms of decreasing rounds of combat however my 14 dex is restrictive since there might actually be 4 AOO's provoked. At 8th level I MUST get it though since rage cycling + unexpected strike is an assured AOO and second AOO.

[Claxon]

Also keep in mind that as you level up and the more attacks you have the benefit of Fortuitious decreases, as the ratio of number of attacks decrease. It starts a 2/3 at level 1 and then keeps going down. At 20th level you could have 6 (4 from BAB, 1 from Haste, 1 AoO) to 7 (add the 2nd AoO from Fortuitous). At best this represent going from 1.5 times damage potential to 1.17 damage potential assuming same exact damage modifiers (which wont be the case since that +1 could be used for something else). It just keeps getting worse as you get better.

At level 11 with haste (and assuming you can get at least 1 AoO) you would have 5 attacks (assuming standard 2 hand build versus) 6 with fortuitious. Also keep in mind that instead of fortuitous you could have something like flaming. Is 5d6 fire damage more than you would get with an extra attack? Seems unlikely, but maybe.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

Also keep in mind that as you level up and the more attacks you have the benefit of Fortuitious decreases, as the ratio of number of attacks decrease. It starts a 2/3 at level 1 and then keeps going down. At 20th level you could have 6 (4 from BAB, 1 from Haste, 1 AoO) to 7 (add the 2nd AoO from Fortuitous). At best this represent going from 1.5 times damage potential to 1.17 damage potential assuming same exact damage modifiers (which wont be the case since that +1 could be used for something else). It just keeps getting worse as you get better.

At level 11 with haste (and assuming you can get at least 1 AoO) you would have 5 attacks (assuming standard 2 hand build versus) 6 with fortuitious. Also keep in mind that instead of fortuitous you could have something like flaming. Is 5d6 fire damage more than you would get with an extra attack? Seems unlikely, but maybe.

This is for PFS.

11th is his stopping point or I would not be using a reach weapon since CaGM wouldn't work as well.

Considering I expect my modifier to rocket by 30-40 at level 11.

The biggest unqualified differential is that courageous increases saves by two.

[Aelryinth]

Don't forget he's a barbarian. Come and Get Me can potentially trigger every round.

==Aelryinth

[Undone]

Aelryinth wrote:

Don't forget he's a barbarian. Come and Get Me can potentially trigger every round.

==Aelryinth

This actually decreases the value of fortuitous but again it's a reach build, and more importantly this is for society so it stops at 11. He will be retired at 11 and will not be progressing into seeker tier. My druid, zen archer, and paladin archer are all going to progress into seeker tier.

[Claxon]

So at best then the damage ratio will be 1.2 to 1.25. You could do up to 25% more damage with fortuitous (or rather with an extra attack) depending on having haste or not.

Edit: So I've ran the DPR calculations

Versus AC 25, Str 28 (while raging, with equipment, etc), BAB 11 using Power Attack and wielding a +2 Furious greatsword with improved critical

Your 1st Attack has .85 chance to hit and .17 chance to crit
Attack 2 .6 .12
Attack 3 .35 .07
AoO .85 .17
Haste .85 .17

You deal 33 points of damage per hit (on average) for
71.28 dpr without Haste or an AoO
104.94 dpr with Haste or an AoO
138.6 dpr with Haste and an AoO

Against AC 30
Attack 1 .6 .12
Attack 2 .35 .07
Attack 3 .1 .01
AoO .6 .12
Haste .6 .12

41.25 dpr without Haste or an AoO
65.01 dpr with Haste or an AoO
88.77 dpr with Haste and an AoO

Versus AC 25 with 28 str, Power Attack, BAB 11, +1 furious fortuitous greatsword with improved critical

Attack 1 .8 .16
Attack 2 .55 .11
Attack 3 .3 .06
AoO 1 .8 .16
AoO 2 .55 .11
Haste .8 .16

63.36 dpr without Haste or any AoOs
94.08 dpr with 1 AoO
115.2 dpr with 2 AoO
145.92 dpr with 2 AoO and Haste
124.8 dpr with 1 AoO and Haste

Versus AC 30
Attack 1 .55 .11
Attack 2 .3 .06
Attack 3 .05 .0025
AoO 1 .55 .11
AoO 2 .3 .06
Haste .55 .11

34.32 without Haste or any AoO
55.44 with 1 AoO
66.96 with 2 AoO
88.08 with 2 AoO and Haste
76.56 with 1 AoO and Haste

[Claxon]

So, against higher AC opponents that +1 to attack and damage that you could have instead of fortuitous actually makes you better. Against oppoenents equal to your CR you will end up only doing 7.32 more points of damage on average.

I excluded the existence of courageous and whether or not that should be bought instead of a flat +1.

This also doesn't factor in any DR that the effective +4 will allow you to bypass (adamantine) that +1 furious fortuitous weapon doesn't.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

So at best then the damage ratio will be 1.2 to 1.25. You could do up to 25% more damage with fortuitous (or rather with an extra attack) depending on having haste or not.

Edit: So I've ran the DPR calculations

Versus AC 25, Str 28 (while raging, with equipment, etc), BAB 11 using Power Attack and wielding a +2 Furious greatsword with improved critical

Your 1st Attack has .85 chance to hit and .17 chance to crit
Attack 2 .6 .12
Attack 3 .35 .07
AoO .85 .17
Haste .85 .17

You deal 33 points of damage per hit (on average) for
71.28 dpr without Haste or an AoO
104.94 dpr with Haste or an AoO
138.6 dpr with Haste and an AoO

Against AC 30
Attack 1 .6 .12
Attack 2 .35 .07
Attack 3 .1 .01
AoO .6 .12
Haste .6 .12

41.25 dpr without Haste or an AoO
65.01 dpr with Haste or an AoO
88.77 dpr with Haste and an AoO

Versus AC 25 with 28 str, Power Attack, BAB 11, +1 furious fortuitous greatsword with improved critical

Attack 1 .8 .16
Attack 2 .55 .11
Attack 3 .3 .06
AoO 1 .8 .16
AoO 2 .55 .11
Haste .8 .16

63.36 dpr without Haste or any AoOs
94.08 dpr with 1 AoO
115.2 dpr with 2 AoO
145.92 dpr with 2 AoO and Haste
124.8 dpr with 1 AoO and Haste

Versus AC 30
Attack 1 .55 .11
Attack 2 .3 .06
Attack 3 .05 .0025
AoO 1 .55 .11
AoO 2 .3 .06
Haste .55 .11

34.32 without Haste or any AoO
55.44 with 1 AoO
66.96 with 2 AoO
88.08 with 2 AoO and Haste
76.56 with 1 AoO and Haste

While I expect a dwarven longax to have similar damage and crit (3x is dpr the same as 19-20x2) what the above tells me is that fortuitous is better early on and worse later.

[Claxon]

+2 Furious Dwarven Longaxe
AC 25 125.125 dpr with AoO and Haste
AC 30 80.4375 dpr with AoO and Haste

+1 Furious Fortuitous Dwarven Longaxe
AC 25 131.67 dpr with 2 AoO and Haste
AC 30 79.6 dpr with 2 AoO and Haste

[Claxon]

Choosing the dwarven longaxe over the greatsword actually has more of an impact on your dpr than choosing +2 furious over +1 furious fortuitous.

[Claxon]

Also, something occurs to me...if you have combat reflexes and a dex of 14 you will be limited to 3 attacks of opportunity a round. Now, fortuitous will enable you to immediately make a second AoO against a creature who has already been hit on an AoO. However, with something like Come and Get Me, or a high chance of getting AoO Fortuitous is actually a negative.

Why? You have a maximum of 3 AoO, and Fortuitous still uses one up. If you have a way of forcing several AoO you would still be able to get 3 AoO whether you use Fortuitous or not (though all of them may or may not be against the same creature). If this is the case, you will actually average more damage by not using Fortuitous since the attack granted by Fortuitous is at a -5, where normally all AoO are at full BAB.

[Undone]

Claxon wrote:

Also, something occurs to me...if you have combat reflexes and a dex of 14 you will be limited to 3 attacks of opportunity a round. Now, fortuitous will enable you to immediately make a second AoO against a creature who has already been hit on an AoO. However, with something like Come and Get Me, or a high chance of getting AoO Fortuitous is actually a negative.

Why? You have a maximum of 3 AoO, and Fortuitous still uses one up. If you have a way of forcing several AoO you would still be able to get 3 AoO whether you use Fortuitous or not (though all of them may or may not be against the same creature). If this is the case, you will actually average more damage by not using Fortuitous since the attack granted by Fortuitous is at a -5, where normally all AoO are at full BAB.

See at this point if I am AOO capping often I think skipping the beast totem line for the extra AOO rage and other powers.

As to the above about greatsword. The longhammer is better. I chose the long ax because his first five adventures all involved zombies in some cases in the title.

Conceptually the double AOO has the highest chance to prevent incoming damage. The 2 higher damage is unlikely to do so.

[lemeres]

Claxon wrote:

Undone wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

That is how fortuitous works. I'm really not sure where you got it functioning like bad combat reflexes.

Or I'm reliant on simply... using a reach weapon... and going for the guy at the front. All the others provoke on their way toward me.

It's really rare (Large tall and huge creatures) to see a creature not provoke from a reach weapon unless they cast.

Or unless they just 5ft step, or use acrobatics, or ignore you and attack someone else.

There is a rather simple solution for the 5ft step bit. Just take lunge.

Normally, with a reach weapon, you end your turn 10 ft away from the opponent. That means they only need to take a 5' step to get to you. So they get their full attack and they do not draw an AoO.

With lunge, enemies end up 15 ft away from you. They have to move 10 ft to attack. That usually means no full attack, and they draw an AoO. It also reduces the number of monsters that can use their natural reach to get to you. So for the most part, any creature that wants to fight you pretty much gets hit with those 2 AoOs.

As a bonus, lunge with a reach weapon lets you full attack anything in a 45 ft wide circle. Even when you can grab pounce, that still sounds rather nice.

Anyway, for the original question- furious seems like the first priority, since it improves you attack rolls (which would be important for your AoO iterative..thing) and it allows you get a false +3 at a +2 price (since this is PFS, and level limits vs. available wealth at those levels are a large concern). After that, fortuitous, and then courageous.

Oh, and claxton- while having both CaGM and fortuitous eats up AoOs, I would imagine that a barbarian could afford at least a the basic belt of physical perfection by level 10. As long as you find some way to boost DEX, you can probably keep it at usable levels, getting up to 6 AoOs per round.

[Cunning Fox]

Since I took the step up and strike feat chain I crapped myself when I saw FORTUITOUS. What are your thoughts on Unexpected strike + step up and strike +FORTUITOUS for a CAGM Barb?
Edit I should note I plan on using Dazing assault which will severely hinder my hit but give me the chance to prevent the enemy attack from either the CAGM attack or the Unexpected strike

[Lune]

FYI - Lunge does not extend your reach for AoOs. It is important to note the wording.

Thats RAW. Personally, at the tables we play at we always house rule that. I'm not certain whether that was an intended flaw or intentional.

Bashade - That is strong, indeed. Perhaps if there were a way to work in Snake Style? Perhaps with a spiked gauntlet?

[Skizm]

With Fortuitous I could leave a path of naked bodies in my wake with greater overrun, charge through and sunder.

This will be fun.

[shroudb]

Lune wrote:

FYI - Lunge does not extend your reach for AoOs. It is important to note the wording.

Thats RAW. Personally, at the tables we play at we always house rule that. I'm not certain whether that was an intended flaw or intentional.

Bashade - That is strong, indeed. Perhaps if there were a way to work in Snake Style? Perhaps with a spiked gauntlet?

it doesnt need to increase your reach outside of your turn:

your round:
you are 15 feet away and full attack with lunge
monster's round:
it is now 15feet away and it needs to move at least 10ft to reach you. So it would need a normal move action, and the last 5ft of his movement will provoke 2 AoO

next round:
monster is next to you:
5ft step back
full attack with pushing assault on the last hit, monster is now again at 15ft distance and will need to provoke (2 attacks due to fortuitous) to reach you