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One of the players in my campaign is thinking to reskin his level 12 witch as a shaman. They are approaching a point where, story wise, that would be acceptable. It can even be appropriate, the witch getting a closer bond with the nature spirits of her land.
My problem is that some options seem too good: specifically the whole wandering spirit thing.
The shaman get the same number of spells of s cleric: a maximum of 4 spell at each level, plus what is essentially a domain spell.
But:
- she get to choose spontaneously what spell she want to cast instead of having to memorize it.
- at 4th level with the wandering spirit she get to chose the second "pseudo domain" every day.
- at 6th level the wandering spirit allow her to chose a new hex for a limited list every day.
- at 12th level the wandering spirit give her its greater ability, again an ability that can be changed every day.
- at 14th level a second wandering hex
Essentially she get a lot of re-customization every day.
My idea is to give her a short list of allowable spirits, appropriated to the character and the setting.
Opinions?
shaman's lose out on greater hexes. and there are some good ones for the witch. also they have different spell lists, so that can be a factor. and you're already in greater hex levels
I just came in to say that the Shaman is not a spontaneous caster...
@shroudb
exactly my thoughts. It is probably one of the most customizable classes I have played so far (from building and playing standpoint). You can pretty much change your playstyle every day. You will never be as strong as someone specialized, but you are a lot more versatile then most other characters. To use this versatility to its fullest, you are more MAD then everyone else. Using Arcane Enlightenment with wandering spirit, you need cha/int/wis. If you want to be a gish, you also need str/dex/con. But with a higher pb (20/25) it works quite well.
I'm having a great time with my current shaman :)
The daily Hex flexibility is not all that. And the BAB and proficiencies barely matter.
Basically, they can both spam Slumber; the Shaman has a vastly superiour spell list, the Witch has Major Hexes and Split Hex.
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I'm looking at deciding between a Witch and Shaman for an upcoming Carrion Crown AP. This is how I see the big differences over 20 levels:
Shaman vs. Witch
(+) Med BAB vs. (-) Low BAB
(+) Med Armor vs. (-) No Armor
(+) Shields vs. (-) No Shields
(+) d8 HP vs. (-) d6 HP
(+) Familiar with Buffs vs. (-) Familiar
(-) Learns 10 Hexes vs. (+) Learns 11 Hexes
(+) Change 2 Hexes/Day vs. (-) Fixed Hexes
(-) No Major Hexes vs. (+) Major Hexes
(-) No Grand Hexes vs. (+) Grand Hexes
(+) 6 Spirit Abilities vs. (-) No Extra Abilities
(+) Capstone Ability vs. (-) No Capstone Ability
(+) 1 Spontaneous Spell / Lvl vs. (-) No Spontaneous Spells
(=) Spell Lists are different
So it looks like this is the decision (abilities wise)
Shaman loses 1 Hex, Major Hexes, and Grand Hexes to gain 2 Floating Hexes, 6 Spirit Abilities, a Capstone Ability, a buffed Familiar, and 9 Spontaneous Spells.
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Is the Shaman a luxury/big party class?
I am playing one and he's a bit of everything. He's like a support Bard or Investigator, not the best at anything but second best at many things (excepting the Bard and Investigator are best for Knowledges).
The Shaman might be an ideal 5th or 6th party member.
On the other hand, as players get used to the class I can see them being played more often. They are such good fun. You can fight a bit, you have interesting skills, you have a familiar, you have an odd but always useful spell list (at level 1 it is trivial to have Entangle, Color Spray and Cure Light Wounds) you have peculiar SLAs and hexes. It's not the easiest class to play, but you can't get bored with a Shaman. Even if you do, wait till tomorrow and change your Wandering Hex.
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@shroudb
exactly my thoughts. It is probably one of the most customizable classes I have played so far (from building and playing standpoint). You can pretty much change your playstyle every day. You will never be as strong as someone specialized, but you are a lot more versatile then most other characters. To use this versatility to its fullest, you are more MAD then everyone else. Using Arcane Enlightenment with wandering spirit, you need cha/int/wis. If you want to be a gish, you also need str/dex/con. But with a higher pb (20/25) it works quite well.I'm having a great time with my current shaman :)
We have rolled stats, with a minimum value of a 20 point buy, and the player has rolled greatly.
With a minimal readjustment she will be a great gish.I decidedly don't want to allow her to choose the Life spirit as it will step too much on the toes of the life oracle.
Shaman's are divine spellcasters. So they could wear full plate and a tower shield and still be fine casting.
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Shaman gets more versatile hexes, but witch gets earlier access and more powerful ones at higher levels. Shaman gets more utility and battlefield control spells, but Witch gets some primo arcane spells and much better debuffs. (cough cough Enervation)
However, whereas witches only get 1/2 BAB, d6 hit die, and a few patron spells known, Shamans get 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, medium armor, a bonus ability for their familiar, a bonus spell slot at each level, and a whole suite of regular, greater, and true Spirit Abilities. Plus, a Shaman immediately has access to the entire Shaman spell list, whereas a Witch only gets 2/level plus what she can pick up during an adventure.
I don't think it's a stretch to say Shaman is more powerful than Witch. A Witch is arguably better at really ruining someone's day, but the Shaman gets a lot of extra goodies and incredible versatility.
PS: Oh yeah, and if your main class ability revolves around staying within 30 feet of an enemy, it's quite nice to be able to wear armor and have more HP than an anemic schoolgirl.
The Shaman might be an ideal 5th or 6th party member.
No way - a Shaman is much closer to a Wizard or Druid than a Bard. He'll easily slot in as "primary utility caster." He doesn't get all the arcane stuff a Wizard gets (e.g. Teleport), and he's not as good at healing as a Cleric, but I would be perfectly comfortable in a party with a Shaman as the only full caster.
Don't forget, Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc favored Class Bonus allows the Shaman to mug spells off the Cleric list (assuming it doesn't run afoul the spells known FAQ) and thanks to their Wandering Spirit, you get one flexible list of spontaneous spells, or with the Fluid Magic Hex, a flexible list of preparable spells. And lets not forget that with Wandering Hex (or Spirit Talker) you can take Arcane Enlightenment which lets you rob the Wizard spell list.
In comparison, the Witch's spell list is severely lacking.
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I'm looking at deciding between a Witch and Shaman for an upcoming Carrion Crown AP. This is how I see the big differences over 20 levels:
Shaman vs. Witch
(+) Med BAB vs. (-) Low BAB
(+) Med Armor vs. (-) No Armor
(+) Shields vs. (-) No Shields
(+) d8 HP vs. (-) d6 HP
(+) Familiar with Buffs vs. (-) Familiar
(-) Learns 10 Hexes vs. (+) Learns 11 Hexes
(+) Change 2 Hexes/Day vs. (-) Fixed Hexes
(-) No Major Hexes vs. (+) Major Hexes
(-) No Grand Hexes vs. (+) Grand Hexes
(+) 6 Spirit Abilities vs. (-) No Extra Abilities
(+) Capstone Ability vs. (-) No Capstone Ability
(+) 1 Spontaneous Spell / Lvl vs. (-) No Spontaneous Spells
(=) Spell Lists are differentSo it looks like this is the decision (abilities wise)
Shaman loses 1 Hex, Major Hexes, and Grand Hexes to gain 2 Floating Hexes, 6 Spirit Abilities, a Capstone Ability, a buffed Familiar, and 9 Spontaneous Spells.Witches have more than +1hex due to lvl acquired.
A lvl1human witch can start with 3 hexes, 4atlvl2 5at lvl3
A lvl3 shaman will have 2 at lvl 3 due to not being able to pick extra hex at lvl1Also note:
Unless erratta'ed extra hex for shaman gives ONLY from his chosen spirit, not from the general list.Given that evil eye/cackle/sleep/fortune/misfortune are all in the general list, that is a huge thorn against shaman
My comparison is for 'base abilities' not racial or other choices made along the way.
As for "Extra Hex" I don't see how you are interpreting it. The Extra Hex feats requires the Hex class feature and says you learn a Hex you meet the prerequisities for. The Shaman's Hex feture lallows choosing any general shaman hex or a hex from their spirit.
Would it work that way? The spirit talker feat says it lets you take 1 hex from the shaman's hex list but doesn't mention the shaman's spirit's hexes? Cause to me it just reads like you can only chose one of the shaman's hexes and not the ones provided by the spirit's hex feature.Don't forget, Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc favored Class Bonus allows the Shaman to mug spells off the Cleric list (assuming it doesn't run afoul the spells known FAQ) and thanks to their Wandering Spirit, you get one flexible list of spontaneous spells, or with the Fluid Magic Hex, a flexible list of preparable spells. And lets not forget that with Wandering Hex (or Spirit Talker) you can take Arcane Enlightenment which lets you rob the Wizard spell list.
In comparison, the Witch's spell list is severely lacking.
Actually, the Hex from Spirit Talker explicitly has to be one from a spirit:
Once per day, you can spend 10 minutes communing with a shaman spirit of your choice. When you do, you gain the temporary use of one hex from its list of hexes. This hex is added to your list of available hexes for the next 24 hours.
Arcane Enlightment is a Lore Spirit Hex, so it should explicitly work.
Shaman Samsaran with mystic past life add them cleric spells.
Unless you are looking to add 9th level spells, or want immediate access, the Human/Half Elf/Half Orc Favored Class bonus will get you 18 different cleric spells to your list up to 8th level (20 if you want 2 cantrips) compared to only 6 spells from Mystic Past Life.
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Switching to Shaman is not a stretch, there's a feat(a really good one) that gives a wandering hex to the witch anyway(and she qualifies for it already) so ignore that part of it being "too good." As people said it is the most MAD class out there if you wanna go gish, if you don't want gish it's about as MAD as the monk. I see it as the monk of spellcasters done right, except you won't dip it for it's frontloadedness.
Witches have more than +1hex due to lvl acquired.A lvl1human witch can start with 3 hexes, 4atlvl2 5at lvl3
A lvl3 shaman will have 2 at lvl 3 due to not being able to pick extra hex at lvl1
He was comparing Hexes gained from the class, and taking nothing but Extra Hex is not the best move. But you're partially right, at the lower levels the Witch will probably have a lot more hexes.
Also note:
Unless erratta'ed extra hex for shaman gives ONLY from his chosen spirit, not from the general list.
That's one reading of the text, but it can also be read to allow general hexes, which I think is the more likely intent.
Not a spontaneous caster, but her "domain like" spells are spontaneous.
I think the shaman is slower taking off than the witch, and doesn't have as much SOD suckage in the late game where a witch may have multiple save or dies.
It is much more versatile, but I don't think that makes it overwhelmingly better than the witch. My current impression is that they are roughly on even ground.
Not a spontaneous caster, but her "domain like" spells are spontaneous.
I think the shaman is slower taking off than the witch, and doesn't have as much SOD suckage in the late game where a witch may have multiple save or dies.
It is much more versatile, but I don't think that makes it overwhelmingly better than the witch. My current impression is that they are roughly on even ground.
I must disagree. As someone who likes Witches the only real advantages are that Witches will have more Skill points (thanks to their INT focus), Major Hexes, and Grand Hexes and 1 more Hex. The Shaman thanks to it's spell list thievery has much more robust list, on top of having more spells which are (pretty awesomely) spontaneous. And one of your spontaneous lists can be changed daily. Now Witch can get more Hexes, but keep in mind a lot of the Witches bread and butter hexes are just regular hexes and these can be stolen by the Shaman, while the Witch can only ever steal one (admittedly this is flexible) from the Shaman.
Keep in mind that the Shaman's version of Cackle - Chant is (Ex) instead of (Su), that the Shaman's version of Evil Eye isn't mind-affecting (hugely important), that it can use it's hexes to get a metamagic feat, or the best crafting feat - Craft Wondrous Item (get a free +4 to identify items as well). Have we mentioned that Shaman gets abilities from it's Spirit yet, something the Witch doesn't get at all since it's only class feature is the hexes? Have we also mentioned that one set of those abilities is changeable daily? Did we mentioned the bigger HD, the higher BAB, no arcane spell failure in armor and has actual proficiency in light and medium armor?
No really, Shamans are much much better then they are getting credit for.
Since when is saying a class is equal to a strong tier 1 class not giving a class credit? Shaman was the first ACG class I made (followed by my investigator) and I quite enjoy him.
Dwarves are my favorite race, so since this can actually be done with dwarves thats a plus, but it limits your spell list thievery. It is still a nice trick, but to steal high level wizard spells takes a high Int, pushing you into MAD territory while the witch is monostatted. I try and not judge a class based on a FCB in case someone doesn't want to play that race.
Having more spells is money, but my witch never really uses her spells up anyway, so thats not a giant issue.
Stealing the witch hexes is useful, though they don't get extended through Chant. I only think that matters for one hex though so, ehhh, not a good deal for the witch.
I knew evil eye wasn't mind effecting but didn't realize that chant was EX. Assuming evil eye doesn't get errata'd these two factors are very powerful.
Not sure the rest are a lot to write home about, but it is something. My dwarf shaman has never swung a weapon, and likely never will so BAB doesn't matter, but hey extra stuff is better.
The debuff shaman takes longer to get started, which is its major disadvantage in my mind. My witch was a lot better at level 1 and 2 than my shaman is. I guess by about 5th they are even so not a big deal.
They don't get Summon Monster, (they can steal spells but one spell level behind or need a very high int) and summon good monster makes Summon Monster incredible now. The difference in 8th and 9th level summons (17 is when AP's end) makes a world of difference.
I've also had a hard time finding more than about 1 hex per spirit, though you probably don't need more than that really.
Ok, I'll give you, the shaman probably does win long term, but I don't think its insanely more powerful, their all tier 1's that can win with the same tricks.
I wouldn't count on the non-mind-affecting shaman Evil Eye. It's quite likely an oversight.
That said I still like the shaman class, despite skimming over it during the playtest. I'm quite looking forward to my PFS battle shaman when I get around to him :)
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Shaman's are divine spellcasters. So they could wear full plate and a tower shield and still be fine casting.They still aren't proficient, which has it's own penalties.
They are proficient in medium armor, and that alone mean 6 points of AC with a normal one and up to 11 points of AC.
Hardly comparable to the 4 points of Mage Armor, and witches have access to few of the wizard defensive spells.|
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Don't forget, Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc favored Class Bonus allows the Shaman to mug spells off the Cleric list (assuming it doesn't run afoul the spells known FAQ) and thanks to their Wandering Spirit, you get one flexible list of spontaneous spells, or with the Fluid Magic Hex, a flexible list of preparable spells. And lets not forget that with Wandering Hex (or Spirit Talker) you can take Arcane Enlightenment which lets you rob the Wizard spell list.
In comparison, the Witch's spell list is severely lacking.
dd one spell from the cleric spell list that isn't on the shaman spell list to the list of spells the shaman knows.
It add it to the list of spell know, so there should be no problem.
Thanks, I hadn't thought about checking the preferred class bonus. That mean that the shaman would have a great spell list.
I wouldn't count on the non-mind-affecting shaman Evil Eye. It's quite likely an oversight.
That said I still like the shaman class, despite skimming over it during the playtest. I'm quite looking forward to my PFS battle shaman when I get around to him :)
I've been looking at a battle Shaman for a while now that uses a level of Martial Artist. Speaker for the Past to grab Spirit Shield, providing an 'armor' that works with Flurry of Blows and Monk AC (and Temporal Celerity is a great grab as well). Monk Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, and Hex Strike: Evil Eye to make one unarmed strike per round into a 1.5x STR 1.5x Power Attack that can swift-action Evil Eye someone. The rest of the flurry is a Temple Sword getting 1.5x Power Attack. Lore Spirit allows for an arcane grab - probably Mirror Image; Pre-cast Frostbite could add even more trouble to the 'one punch'. 8 charisma I can live with to make a Dual Talent 18STR/16WIS Shamonk.
Sadly, the favored class bonus only adds the spells to their spells known. Not their spell list. Which matters according to the spells known FAQ.
New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
This really comes down to whether or not favored class bonuses are "class features". Since "list of spells the shaman knows" is "list of spells known" as mentioned in the FAQ. I mean I think the intent is clear, you get the cleric spell to your spell list and spells known, I just wish the RAW was equally so. Or that the FAQ would go away, and adding a spell to your spells known means it's on your class list regardless of if it's from a class feature or not.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Sadly, the favored class bonus only adds the spells to their spells known. Not their spell list. Which matters according to the spells known FAQ.
This really comes down to whether or not favored class bonuses are "class features". Since "list of spells the shaman knows" is "list of spells known" as mentioned in the FAQ. I mean I think the intent is clear, you get the cleric spell to your spell list and spells known, I just wish the RAW was equally so. Or that the FAQ would go away, and adding a spell to your spells known means it's on your class list regardless of if it's from a class feature or not.New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
I have re-read the thread started by the PDF about that FAQ, the problem at the time was mostly about adding spells to spontaneous spell lists, not to memorized spell lists.
But, effectively, it seem to block the ability to use the added cleric spells. I think it is an oversight of the writer, but one that need to be corrected.|
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As for "Extra Hex" I don't see how you are interpreting it. The Extra Hex feats requires the Hex class feature and says you learn a Hex you meet the prerequisities for. The Shaman's Hex feture lallows choosing any general shaman hex or a hex from their spirit.That's one reading of the text, but it can also be read to allow general hexes, which I think is the more likely intent.
Also note:
Unless erratta'ed extra hex for shaman gives ONLY from his chosen spirit, not from the general list.
Despite what the srd says, the book has the new extra hex wording which is:
By raw you simply cannot take general hexes with extra hexBenefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet the prerequisites for this hex. If you are a shaman, it must be a hex granted by your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit.
I am almost sure that is was meant to block you from taking a extra hex from your wandering spirit list, not from the witch list, but as written, it allow to pick them only from a very limited list.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly is the benefit of Chant being (Ex)?
All the hexes that Chant/Cackle can extend are (Su), so if something is blocking your (Su) effects, it's going to block whatever hex Chant/Cackle would extend.
I guess it makes it possible to extend the duration of a hex on someone who just walked into an antimagic field, but they still won't benefit/suffer from the hex until they walk back out again, and that whole situation feels a bit corner-case-y to me.
Is there something I'm missing?