Slayer Talent and Ranger Combat Style

[Demorant]

So I am having a hard time trying to grasp the exact intent of

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List." At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List."

To me it reads: When you take this talent you gain one feat from the first list of whatever style you choose. The chosen feat and the rest are added to the "List". You don't have to meet prerequisites for feats on the "List".

Then it says you may take the talent again at 6th level. It doesn't say it awards you with a feat like first selecting it does. It only states that other feats are added to the list for which you don't have to meet prerequisites for. The same goes for the 10th level. It doesn't say you are awarded a feat. You just get to ignore the prerequisites for them.

The other thing that makes me think my understanding is true is that the slayer talents have the line: "Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once."

This leads me to believe that you can only take this 3 times since you may take it once, again at 6th, and thirdly at 10th because that's as "otherwise noted".

One of my party members says that my interpretation is wrong and that you can select it as many times as you want and can get the feats from this list every time you choose it. However, I don't see the wording that makes sense that way.

Another party member said you only get to select it three times, each time only getting one feat from the expanding list. Which seems odd since if you are taking it, you are doing so to avoid the DEX requirement, meaning you will never have the option to filling out the feats that make Two Weapon Fighting great.

To me the selection of feats it grants just don't make sense if you only get access to 3 of them at most or have to take it multiple times to get each feat since it ties receiving the feat with selecting the style which you only do once.

Our DM says he can't refute my logic and it makes the most sense to him. But I would hate to be taking advantage of his lack of knowledge if there is something I am missing or official ruling somewhere.

His opinion is that it works the way I think largely due to the fact that the ranger version is specifically listed as Combat Style Feat(EX), whereas the Slayer is just Ranger Combat Style(EX). So the Intent is for rangers to pick up feats specifically when they get awarded new Combat Style feats and the Slayer just gets tiers of them unlocked at first pick, 6th, and 10th

TL;DR Version:
Does taking the style talent just open up feats for you to take normally, ignoring the prerequisites?

[concerro]

Yes. If you take the style talent you can choose any feat on that list without meeting the prerequisites.

[Dafydd]

It looks like, to me at least, the Talent mimics the ranger class feature. As such, you may pick the talent, gaining a feat normally available to a ranger picking that combat style. Each time you pick the talent, you get the expanded list and your choice of feat from that list.

As for whether you can take this talent as often as you want or just 3 times, I can see both interpretations as valid.

Sadly, this ability, like so many others from ACG, needed more work before release.

[wraithstrike]

Dafydd wrote:

It looks like, to me at least, the Talent mimics the ranger class feature. As such, you may pick the talent, gaining a feat normally available to a ranger picking that combat style. Each time you pick the talent, you get the expanded list and your choice of feat from that list.

As for whether you can take this talent as often as you want or just 3 times, I can see both interpretations as valid.

Sadly, this ability, like so many others from ACG, needed more work before release.

I think the intent is that you are have to keep using the same weapon style whenever you choose the ranger style talent, but I don't know if it is directly stated.

[Calth]

wraithstrike wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

It looks like, to me at least, the Talent mimics the ranger class feature. As such, you may pick the talent, gaining a feat normally available to a ranger picking that combat style. Each time you pick the talent, you get the expanded list and your choice of feat from that list.

As for whether you can take this talent as often as you want or just 3 times, I can see both interpretations as valid.

Sadly, this ability, like so many others from ACG, needed more work before release.

I think the intent is that you are have to keep using the same weapon style whenever you choose the ranger style talent, but I don't know if it is directly stated.

Mark made a post in the slayer thread on selecting ranger combat style talents that basically said any restrictions on ranger's ranger combat styles apply to these talents, because we didn't say they don't. So you can only choose one ranger style, and you lose the benefit in heavy armor.

And to OP, you can only take the talent three times, because that's what it says. Heck, RAW, if you don't take the talent for the second time at 6 and third time at 10 you can only take it once, but that's obviously not the RAI. And your second players interpretation is correct. This talent line only lets you bypass prerequisites for the feats you gain when you select it, just like rangers only bypass prerequisites with their bonus feats.

[Demorant]

Calth wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

It looks like, to me at least, the Talent mimics the ranger class feature. As such, you may pick the talent, gaining a feat normally available to a ranger picking that combat style. Each time you pick the talent, you get the expanded list and your choice of feat from that list.

As for whether you can take this talent as often as you want or just 3 times, I can see both interpretations as valid.

Sadly, this ability, like so many others from ACG, needed more work before release.

I think the intent is that you are have to keep using the same weapon style whenever you choose the ranger style talent, but I don't know if it is directly stated.

Mark made a post in the slayer thread on selecting ranger combat style talents that basically said any restrictions on ranger's ranger combat styles apply to these talents, because we didn't say they don't. So you can only choose one ranger style, and you lose the benefit in heavy armor.

And to OP, you can only take the talent three times, because that's what it says. Heck, RAW, if you don't take the talent for the second time at 6 and third time at 10 you can only take it once, but that's obviously not the RAI. And your second players interpretation is correct. This talent line only lets you bypass prerequisites for the feats you gain when you select it, just like rangers only bypass prerequisites with their bonus feats.

The problem for me is that even if you take it 3 times it says you only get awarded the feat the first time you take it. At 6 and 10 it only adds new abilities to their under explained list. It's not called Combat Style Feat like the ranger one, it's just Ranger Combat Style. So where the ranger one says specifically it's a feat, the Slayer one does not say it awards any feat other than the first time you choose which style you are pursuing. The ranger one is clear it states "he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat" which the slayer is lacking. I really think that if they were treated the same that they would have cut and pasted the ranger language into the slayer one instead of writing something that is ambiguous at best.

I'm sorry if I come across being difficult but most of the answer i'm reading are just "it's just like the ranger one" when I don't see anything similar about them aside it lets you ignore the prerequisites of the same feats at the same level. Ranger clearly states it awards feats and you can choose from the list. The Slayer says you get one feat when chosen and then you can ignore the prerequisites of feats on the list, the list expanding when you invest another talent into it.

You said "Mark made a post in the slayer thread on selecting ranger combat style talents that basically said any restrictions on ranger's ranger combat styles apply to these talents" but that doesn't address the question of how you acquire the feats. Since, as I read it, only the first Slayer Talent invested into Ranger Combat Style awards a feat. So from that quote about Mark says only seems to apply to picking one combat style, and the armor restriction. Or the actual entry for ranger that it seems he's referring to is:

"The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed."

So far no one has pointed out what specifically makes my interpretation wrong. I just think too many people are just trying to make it the Ranger's Combat Style Feat without actually reading what the slayer one says. I'm looking for someone to convince me but I haven't seen any argument I feel makes more sense.

To reiterate I really do think the Ranger one states that it grants feats and they must be taken from the specific list while the Slayer one just opens up the same list to take with normal feats since Slayers aren't awarded with any actual "Combat Style Feats" to spend on the list like a Ranger is.

Also, is there any official ruling on whether the Ranger's language in his combat style only applies to his combat style feats or all feats? The quote I'm looking at is

"He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites."

[fretgod99]

Quote:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

I don't understand how this doesn't say it works just like when a Ranger chooses feats for his/her chosen combat style.

The first time you take it, you choose a style and select a feat. The next time you take it, you add the 6th level feats of your chosen style to the list available and choose a feat. The next time you take it, you add the 10th level feats of your chosen style to the list available and choose a feat.

Your complaints about the restrictions on choosing these feats make no sense; this is precisely how it functions for Rangers. Is it your opinion that the Slayer talent, which is supposed to mimic the Ranger combat style class feature (since the Slayer is a hybrid of Rogues and Rangers), is supposed to be better than the Ranger class feature?

You get three feats to choose from the list, with the list being expanded at 6th and 10th levels. You get to ignore the prereqs for these feats only when selected using the combat style class feature, just as with the Ranger class feature. Your interpretation makes the Slayer talent objectively better, which doesn't make sense. Despite any particular ambiguity you might see in the wording, rest assured that it is intended to work just like the Ranger combat style class feature.

[dragonhunterq]

When it says you can select the talent again at 6th and 10th you select the talent again in it's entirety. That includes the line that says "...and gains a combat feat..." There is nothing in the latter part that precludes you from gaining another feat.

Whilst you also get that line about choosing a Ranger Style, the restrictions on ranger styles means you have to choose the same one you chose at 1st level.

[Diminuendo]

eh, you're still getting less feats than the Ranger, and it doesnt seem gamebreaking to me. You get a style feat when you take the Ranger Combat Style talent and you can ignore feat prerequisites for feats from that list.

Saying this isnt fair because Rangers can't is like saying Swashbucklers are unfair because Rogues can't use weapon finesse with a Katana.

[fretgod99]

"At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list."

This pretty clearly means "from the style you've already chosen". Otherwise, it'd really need to have a specific mention that it pertains to the newly selected style.

Diminuendo wrote:

Saying this isnt fair because Rangers can't is like saying Swashbucklers are unfair because Rogues can't use weapon finesse with a Katana.

Not analogous.

One is a similar ability which explicitly calls it out as being different. The other clearly is intended to function the exact same way and to mimic the original class ability. So yes, allowing the Slayer talent to do something above and beyond what the Ranger class feature does makes little to no sense.

It's not as explicitly worded as it should be. I see no justification for why it doesn't work just like the Ranger version.

[Diminuendo]

I think it's just a GM interpretation thing.

In all honesty if Paizo just released a feat called "Extra Combat Style" it would be a real asset to some builds without being gamebreaking.

[wraithstrike]

Who said it does more than what the ranger version does, and what is that "more"? From what I read people are saying if you get the ability you get the same feat access a ranger does except for Dr.Deth, but I think he is playing devil's advocate and does not really believe the PDT team will support that statement.

[Kazaan]

The Slayer is a blend of Ranger and Rogue. It makes sense that you don't get the full gamut of Ranger style feats as a full Ranger would. You won't get enough to be "great" at it, you'll get enough to supplement your other abilities. That having been said, the correct reading is that you can take the talent up to three times. This clause: "At level 6, he may select this talent again" that pretty explicitly says that it's that particular rules element that gives him permission to select it a second time. Same goes for the "At level 10" line. It isn't an open invitation to just take it at every level you get a talent.

[BretI]

Demorant wrote:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List." At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List."

First time you take it, you select your Ranger Combat Style and get a feat from that style. They still do not need to meet the normal prerequisites.

You can not take it a second time until you are 6th level or above. When you take it the second time it is from the same combat style, you get access to the new feats in that style that are added for 6th level, and you can select one feat from that style.

You can not take it a third time until you are 10th level or above. When you take it the third time it is from the same combat style, you get access to the new feats in that style that are added for 10th level, and you can select one feat from that style.

That is a lot longer explanation. There are probably still people that would misinterpret it.

Key points:
Where it says "may select this talent again", it gives permission to but does not require you do it at the given level. You can't do it before that level.

Others have covered how selecting a second and third time still give the feat but does not allow you to select a different Ranger Combat Style.

If they don't take it a second or third time, they can still use their normal feats to select from those portions of the list that they already have in their combat style without requiring the prerequisite feats.

[fretgod99]

wraithstrike wrote:

Who said it does more than what the ranger version does, and what is that "more"? From what I read people are saying if you get the ability you get the same feat access a ranger does except for Dr.Deth, but I think he is playing devil's advocate and does not really believe the PDT team will support that statement.

Can a Ranger ignore prereqs for style feats when not choosing that feat with a bonus feat? My understanding is no. This is what the OP is trying to do. If the Ranger can't typically do that, the Slayer talent is objectively better. If the Ranger can, that aspect of the Slayer talent is the same. Regardless, it seems silly to me that a Slayer woud not be able to select a new feat at 6th and 10th. It appears to be intended to function just like the Ranger class feature. That they didn't include the word "feat" in the name of the talent shouldn't really matter.

EDIT: To include OP's question:

Demorant wrote:

Does taking the style talent just open up feats for you to take normally, ignoring the prerequisites?

So, the question is whether the Slayer talent taken at 6th level and beyond simply lets you ignore prerequisites for a group of feats whenever you would take them (using bonus feats or otherwise). This is the "more" I was referring to.

It also appears that BretI supports this position.

[Kazaan]

No. Taking the bonus feat for the Ranger only disregards prereqs if using the style-granted bonus feat slot. If the Ranger, say, at lvl 3 decided he wanted to take TWF, he'd need to satisfy the prereqs. If he took it as a bonus feat via Ranger TWF style, he would not need to satisfy the prereqs. Same goes for Monk. A Monk only disregards prereqs if he takes the feat via his Bonus Feats class ability; not if he uses a general odd-level feat slot.

PS: This restriction also applies to the Slayer. He can't take any feat from the list sans prereqs unless he takes it via the talent. He still needs to satisfy prereqs if he takes it with a general feat slot.

[Stikye]

I think the point he is trying to make, or question. Is that the 6th and 10th level versions, don't say "add a feat" it just lets you add more feats to your list.

Ranger Combat Style wrote:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List." At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List."

No where in it does it say to add feats to the character at 6th and 10th levels, just add them to the list he can now choose from. But that is just my interpretation of his answer.

[Cardz5000]

when you take the talent, you take the whole thing. when you take the talent a second time (or third) at 6th level or above, you still get that first par that says gains a combat feat, and in addition, you get to add a couple of feats to the list from which you are choosing that feat from.

[wraithstrike]

fretgod99 wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Who said it does more than what the ranger version does, and what is that "more"? From what I read people are saying if you get the ability you get the same feat access a ranger does except for Dr.Deth, but I think he is playing devil's advocate and does not really believe the PDT team will support that statement.

Can a Ranger ignore prereqs for style feats when not choosing that feat with a bonus feat? My understanding is no. This is what the OP is trying to do. If the Ranger can't typically do that, the Slayer talent is objectively better. If the Ranger can, that aspect of the Slayer talent is the same. Regardless, it seems silly to me that a Slayer woud not be able to select a new feat at 6th and 10th. It appears to be intended to function just like the Ranger class feature. That they didn't include the word "feat" in the name of the talent shouldn't really matter.

EDIT: To include OP's question:

Demorant wrote:

Does taking the style talent just open up feats for you to take normally, ignoring the prerequisites?

So, the question is whether the Slayer talent taken at 6th level and beyond simply lets you ignore prerequisites for a group of feats whenever you would take them (using bonus feats or otherwise). This is the "more" I was referring to.

It also appears that BretI supports this position.

Ok. I missed that. In that case the OP needs to know that is not allowed. He gets to choose the ranger style talent at certain levels, and he gets access to certain feats without needing to meet the prerequisites, just like the ranger would.

[fretgod99]

Stikye wrote:

I think the point he is trying to make, or question. Is that the 6th and 10th level versions, don't say "add a feat" it just lets you add more feats to your list.

Ranger Combat Style wrote:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List." At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the "List."

No where in it does it say to add feats to the character at 6th and 10th levels, just add them to the list he can now choose from. But that is just my interpretation of his answer.

I know what his point is. Since it doesn't explicitly say "feat" in there, it must mean something else. My point is that it pretty clearly is intended to work just like the Ranger version and not to be objectively better.

Being allowed to ignore prerequisites for a whole pile of feats, whenever you'd want to take them, is objectively better than the Ranger version.