But using a lower hit point total than average to up the lethality on both sides. So, maybe using one point lower than is given on the PFS table for hit points. Which if I'm not mistaken is d6- 4, d8- 6, d10- 8, d12- 10, after the full at level one, adding the CON mod as usual.
Would something like this work? Or would it disadvantage full arcane casters too much who don't get a lot of hit points to start with?
It is only a difference of 1 hit point per level on average, and normally if you can hit a caster he is already in trouble anyway. The frontliners who get hit the most are more likely to suffer than the poor BAB types who are normally in the back.
The clerics and druids might decide to not go into the front lines meaning they will concentrate on casting spells, and as a GM it is easier to run for casters when they are not casting. This might actually make it harder for you to GM, depending on how well your players know the game.
If you are trying to make the game more lethal then there are other ways to do.
Thanks for your opinions!
I guess I just wanted players to use 25 points to make strong characters with which they can sorta feel like powerful heroes, but still be able to use adventure paths.
I'm not sure this will work the way you want.
Higher con + smaller hit die = no change
More importantly, the higher point buy will allow the single stat classes (witch, wizard, barbarian) to invest even more into their one stat. Which makes them a bit unstoppable, as saving throw DC's creep higher, and power attacks always hit.
Consider instead:
Recruiting another player (baseline is 4)
Allowing henchmen/hirelings/cohorts
Giving them more coins to buy gear
Giving them more xp/another level
Using the extra effort rules from the alexandrian's blog
My skull and shackles party really, really felt like powerful heroes on 15 points. We're talking preventing a shipwreck with the wave of a hand, trivially selling entire isolated settlements into slavery and carving their way through heavily armed and experienced crews without batting an eye.
Two of the characters did kind of get shown up, but they got replaced with new, better built, more thematic characters and kicked stupendous amounts of ass. I'd say your party will be as powerful as the players choose to make them, regardless of points.
That's a bit of work, adding a template to every monster. I find it much easier to limit the players early on, so that you can use the stat blocks as written, but you'll know your own group best.
Thanks for your opinions!
I guess I just wanted players to use 25 points to make strong characters with which they can sorta feel like powerful heroes, but still be able to use adventure paths.
Just give them 20 point buy. If they have good system mastery that will be enough. If they dont then 25 wont help them either.
You could do what I did in the campaign I started last week:
- 25 point buy
- max 17 stat (before racial mods)
- min 8 stat (before mods)
This makes for more well-rounded characters, without allowing SAD classes to go for such a high max.
So we have a half-orc barbarian who actually has a 10 INT and CHA, for example, instead of deep sixing them.
And it gives a helping hand to SAD classes.
If the question is "will the modules be balanced for this group?", well, I figure the DM *always* need to beef up the opposition anyway. So beef it up! Add in a few mooks, give critters a few extra hit points or a +1 (or so) to hit. Rince and repeat.
Leave the characters alone. Let them feel awesome. Add an extra lesser monster here and there if they start to blow through everything, but wait and see if they actually blow through them or not.
My experience is that higher point buys tend to result in more players trying out hybrid classes as the MAD problems are much less under a high point buy. When you only have enough points for one decent stat the single stat classes show up almost exclusively.
I see your point, but all i can say is that i have different players than you do. By all means, encourage hybrid classes OP, they're more versatile anyway.
In general, a higher point buy helps MAD classes. A lower point buy hurts them. SAD classes will do well either way.
You'll just get more MAD characters in the party makeup, and the SAD characters will have fewer saving throw weaknesses (because they won't have to tank other stats to get their 18). Not really that big a deal past about 3rd level.
In our groups we play with 25 point buy exclusively. Everyone is happy and normally noone really dumps stats. On average one of three players has an eight as his worst ability, the others no abilities worse than 10.
As we always have minimum one full divine and one full arcane caster in our Groups, APs are often a little bit too easy - but even then there are character deaths from time to time.
A simple fix for this, though not always enough (and seldom too much) is maximized hitpoints for all opponents, advanced template for the BBEG...
Plus, sometimes I just give the monster +1 on every roll it makes. All in all, that should be enough to even out a 25 point buy.
I've generally found 25 point buy to not be a problem. As has been said, it helps MAD classes, while not really effecting SAD ones. Plus, honestly , you're probably going to have to adjust the encounters anyway, so buffing monsters if the party seems too strong won't be adding much work that isn't already there. And you can always buff on the fly, the Simple Advanced Template is really easy to add to a monster in the middle of combat, without the party ever knowing (although you may have to forge the extra AC).
Part of being a good GM is modifying things on the fly to keep the adventure fun and entertaining for the players. This applies to homebrew, APs, and any other type of adventures that you may run.
If you want to let your players start with all 18s, you could still challenge them by modifying a few things here and there.
Trust your instincts, and err on the side of caution when powering up enemies. Its always easier to make the next encounter a bit tougher than to reduce the current encounter.