I am around 2/3 into Fires of Creation, and am already getting complaints from my players about the rarity of high-tech firearms. Though normally I would simply go with the book, two out of five players have class features dependent on high-tech firearms. As I look through the Lords of Rust PDF, where I had been hoping such items would start to get more common, I found a similar rarity. My question is: Is there any reason in terms of story or gameplay balance that I should not add in more of such items?
"dependent" on high tech fire arms?
there should only be…what the tech slinger?
whats the other guy? savage technologist?
My character is dependent on a +5 Flaming Vorpal sword…can you squeeze that into book 2 for me… cuz ummm Ill be right over!
Zero riles aren't going to under every rock and stone you know… as far as I know, the plan isn't to find a teleportation device that opens a a worm hole and send the character to androffa.
it's a buried crashed space ship, that has had the opportunity to be scavenged for thousands of years… players will have to get a little deep before they find something "just laying around"
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I count two high-tech firearms, the inferno pistol and a laser rifle from the smilers. 2 weapons, 2 PCs sounds good enough for me. You should have maybe prepared them, that the adventure will be for a good while low tech and that high-tech has to earned.
How exactly are they dependant on tech firearms?
I agree with the above posters, the idea that they would be "depending" on them Is ridiculous. as they can clearly manage without them if they need to.
If they build their characters solely around a type of item that the player guide clearly says is going to be rare for the first few adventures, then they are idiots. Idiocy should not be rewarded.
Also to answer your original question, I'll do that in two parts;
1. Yes, story wise it is a big impact, these weapons are rare for a reason. with only a single source, that is incredibly old, and with a organization that goes out of its way to keep these items out of public hand adding them in haphazardly is negatively impacting the story both in the way it detracts from the setting as much as it undermines the validity of the main antagonists.
2. gameplay balance is also affected. The items are technological. they are balanced because unlike magical weapons they consume charges, charges. Charges that do not have a lot of opportunity to be recharged without cost. So giving them more of them would increase the total number of charges they can spend before such a point, greatly increasing the power of the pc's when it comes to their usage of these items. They are also worth a lot of money, if the become common enough for replacement, the amount of gold they will have access to will also be unbalanced.
That's just what I've seen of it though.
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GUNS IN IRON GODS (So Far):
So by the end of book 2 the group's got 3 technological firearms that aren't timeworn, two of which are magical (though one requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy weapons) to use properly). In addition, some of the tech weaponry classes have special abilities that can eke out more usage out of timeworn firearms (the gunslinger in my group's been burning through grit to keep her timeworn stun gun running, but knocks enough baddies down to regain grit at an equivalent rate for now).
With book 3 taking the PCs from 7th to 10th, I could easily see more tech firearms cropping up (PC wealth by level for 10th is 62,000 gp, so 10-20k weapons are reasonable at that level).
Not to mention that at 3rd the PCs might get access to a lab that allows the creation of tech firearms.
"dependent" on high tech fire arms?
there should only be…what the tech slinger?
whats the other guy? savage technologist?
My character is dependent on a +5 Flaming Vorpal sword…can you squeeze that into book 2 for me… cuz ummm Ill be right over!
Zero riles aren't going to under every rock and stone you know… as far as I know, the plan isn't to find a teleportation device that opens a a worm hole and send the character to androffa.
it's a buried crashed space ship, that has had the opportunity to be scavenged for thousands of years… players will have to get a little deep before they find something "just laying around"
They are both Techslingers
They are both Techslingers"dependent" on high tech fire arms?
there should only be…what the tech slinger?
whats the other guy? savage technologist?
My character is dependent on a +5 Flaming Vorpal sword…can you squeeze that into book 2 for me… cuz ummm Ill be right over!
Zero riles aren't going to under every rock and stone you know… as far as I know, the plan isn't to find a teleportation device that opens a a worm hole and send the character to androffa.
it's a buried crashed space ship, that has had the opportunity to be scavenged for thousands of years… players will have to get a little deep before they find something "just laying around"
nothing about that archetype that depends on high tech firearms.
they start with black powder forearms and at their level, their abilities still work fine with the weapons they have.I don't see anything wrong with letting them find a "Slug thrower" or two.
20mm heavy rifle with 5 round box mag? have it do the damage of a huge pistol.
They'll run out of ammo quickly, should give them plenty to spend grit on, being a primer fired weapon THAT old?
another fun weapon might be something like a single shot grande launcher (think m79 from veitnam era)
The weapons won't me worth a lot, have them be able to scavenge them off robots who shoot at them with them first.
Ammo would be super rare and while they could make some of it, there wouldn't be much of it.
This gives them something to play with until zappers show up, but still gives them weapons that aren't worth any more than a blunderbuss that they started with (only a gunslinger could make them work)
2 techslingers? That's a bit much.
Well missing deadeye deed and quick clear deed which are kinda important for early firearm use, i think that your players should have thought it more thoroughly and start as a normal gunslinger and retrain to the archetype later but even still; i think that they can function as it is.
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This thread got me excited for the wrong reasons....
I am also concerned about the prevalence of firearms, as I wanted my iron gods to be more chainswordy and less boltgunny, but that's just me. I will make changes where necessary.
This is highly concerning to me, as I'm playing a Techslinger in our Iron Gods campaign. The lack of the quick clear dead has already crippled me several times in Fires of Creation, but I was hoping to get a decent tech gun by level five because tech guns are the ONLY things I can choose to add dex damage too based on the archtype. The one non-timeworn gun found so far wouldn't work, as its less effective than a powder firearm and a unique gun so it doesn't share a catagory with any other type of firearm I could switch to later.
As it stands it looks like I'll have to ask my GM to let me drop Techslinger for just a plain old gunslinger, which is highly disapointing. I thought for sure that the tech based adventure path would be the perfect place to play an tech based archtype, but apprently not.
@'Sani
Early firearms are better for a gunslinger than a technological firearm in any case, what's your specific issues?
The fact that you get an inferno pistol but if you select that as one of your gun training (in order to get DEX to damage) then you are pretty much stuck with a gun training choice that won't be useful at books 3+ because you will most likely not find other inferno pistols?
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With book 3 being the one where lab facilities are supposed to appear, the number of guns should expand from there pretty widely. Even if not there'll prolly be a better magical gun popping up in the adventure volume, just in time to choose with gun training 2. And the inferno pistol's not bad. Its real downside is that nanite canisters are five times as expensive as batteries, so each shot is a 50 gp expenditure (crippling at low levels, but manageable at mid levels and a bargain at high levels).
Soon as book 3's out, I'll make a list of all the tech firearms I find in it.
EDIT: Don't forget as a techslinger, you can use a timeworn gun for a decent amount of time with little issue. You'll prolly only roll on the glitch table once (when you first fire it) and you can burn a grit to prevent that roll from occurring. Tech firearms don't need quick clear (since they don't misfire), and if you kill-steal, you can replace grit to use your covet charge deed relatively well. It's really only necessary until you get that inferno pistol and then you're golden.
I'm not expecting ready access to tech guns, I was just hoping to get ONE that was useful before I hit 5, and am highly disapointed that I most likely won't. Unless I beg my party to pool all the gathered funds and beg the GM to let me buy one.
@leo1925 My specific issue is I am disapointed that my choice of using a tech archtype for the tech adventure path will end up being a cripplingly bad descision, which is counter intuitive. The whole reason I chose a gunslinger was because of the techslinger archtype, I was under the mistaken impression that it would be a good choice for the AP. I was wrong and now I regret making my entire character, that is my issue.
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You know, the retraining rules do allow you to train out of an archetype. 5 days per alternate class feature you already have from that archetype. Based upon where you are in the game so far, you would be trading out two features, so you'd spend 10 days retraining back to a basic gunslinger. GP expenditure would be 100 gp times your level. If you really want to retrain, then I suggest doing it earlier rather than later.
Personally, I'd just suck up the awkward levels, as your archetype will come into its own in due time. You're like a wizard - you'll "suck" for a few levels, and then be awesome once you get the bits you need for your class.
I'm not expecting ready access to tech guns, I was just hoping to get ONE that was useful before I hit 5, and am highly disapointed that I most likely won't. Unless I beg my party to pool all the gathered funds and beg the GM to let me buy one.
@leo1925 My specific issue is I am disapointed that my choice of using a tech archtype for the tech adventure path will end up being a cripplingly bad descision, which is counter intuitive. The whole reason I chose a gunslinger was because of the techslinger archtype, I was under the mistaken impression that it would be a good choice for the AP. I was wrong and now I regret making my entire character, that is my issue.
I think that you are over reacting.
Would it be better if you were a standard gunslinger and then retrained to the archetype?
yes it would, either your DM should have told you such or you should have seen that (by seeing the prices in the tech firearms and having the WBL table in mind), but it is not a crippling bad choice.
Is the techslinger archetype worse than the pistolero, even when using technological pistols?
maybe... probably yes but again that should have been evident to you when you read the techslinger archetype.
Is the techslinger archetype worse than the musket master, even when using technological two handed firearms?
maybe... probably yes but again that should have been evident to you when you read the techslinger archetype.
Is the use of tech firearms less optimal than the use of early firearms?
Yes it is but that is something that isn't evident by a cursory reading of the tech firearms and their rules.
The techslinger archetype is a good choice thematically and aesthetically with the AP and not mechanically, didn't you see or know this?
PS. To your specific issue about the inferno pistol, if you don't like it then at 6th level you find an EMP pistol (the second best tech pistol), then you can retrain your tech training choice and swap the inferno pistol to the EMP pistol.
I think that you are over reacting.I'm not expecting ready access to tech guns, I was just hoping to get ONE that was useful before I hit 5, and am highly disapointed that I most likely won't. Unless I beg my party to pool all the gathered funds and beg the GM to let me buy one.
@leo1925 My specific issue is I am disapointed that my choice of using a tech archtype for the tech adventure path will end up being a cripplingly bad descision, which is counter intuitive. The whole reason I chose a gunslinger was because of the techslinger archtype, I was under the mistaken impression that it would be a good choice for the AP. I was wrong and now I regret making my entire character, that is my issue.
I can only agree with that and if you feel that way, you should probably try to build your character in a less one dimensional way.
PS. To your specific issue about the inferno pistol, if you don't like it then at 6th level you find an EMP pistol (the second best tech pistol), then you can...
Wait, what? Half damage to non-robots might make it the second worst pistol. Very situational.
Wait, what? Half damage to non-robots might make it the second worst pistol. Very situational.
PS. To your specific issue about the inferno pistol, if you don't like it then at 6th level you find an EMP pistol (the second best tech pistol), then you can...
Ok that's what i get when i don't go to read the whole description of the weapon (it's actually no damage to living creatures).
I take it back, it's a very situational weapon, you should stick with the inferno pistol.
I thought it more and researched it a little more and it's true that not having quick clear sucks. I, originally, thought that without quick clear you needed to spend a minute or something but as it turns out you need to spend 1 hour of crafting, that is too much and i can understand why 'Sani says that it's crippling him.
There is something that can be done, the mending cantrip can remove the broken condition, so with a 5 CL casting you can remove the broken condition from pistols and with a 9 CL casting you can do the same with muskets.
on techslingers:
Who would a tech slinger KNOW how to BE a tech slinger, without access to or having a tech weapon?
Where would he learn reliable? Or Covert charge?
"back in my training days I had a mk2 phaser, but I tossed it in favor of old puff the not-so-magic dragon here"
Similarly, you have the cybersoldier who can't use his 5th level ability because WBL, he can't afford cyberlimbs.
Simply put, just because these archetypes are IN the technology guide, they are NOT meant for 1st level PCs for THIS AP.
It's not the GMs fault, because he's not supposed to tell you at beginning of the adventure path "heres a list of all the treasure you will find and at what levels you will be acquiring them"
The technic league dent even want you to have tech, sot TECHNICALLY (pun intended) your tech gun is illegal contraband that belongs to them in the first place.
Not something you can stop happening as a first level loner.
Techslinger/cybersoldier should be things you train into at higher levels.
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I'm not expecting ready access to tech guns, I was just hoping to get ONE that was useful before I hit 5, and am highly disapointed that I most likely won't. Unless I beg my party to pool all the gathered funds and beg the GM to let me buy one.
Consider that expected character wealth at level 5 is 10,500 gp. Then check out the prices for the tech guns you're expecting. An arc pistol, a laser pistol, or a zero pistol each costs 10,000 gp (which is, for example, more expensive that a magical +2 weapon).
Expecting to get equipment like that at level 5 or earlier is... optimistic, to say the least.
Simply put, just because these archetypes are IN the technology guide, they are NOT meant for 1st level PCs for THIS AP.
Techslinger/cybersoldier should be things you train into at higher levels.
This.
Meaning if that's the character you want you're boned if your GM doesn't allow retraining.
I'm not expecting ready access to tech guns, I was just hoping to get ONE that was useful before I hit 5, and am highly disapointed that I most likely won't. Unless I beg my party to pool all the gathered funds and beg the GM to let me buy one.Consider that expected character wealth at level 5 is 10,500 gp. Then check out the prices for the tech guns you're expecting. An arc pistol, a laser pistol, or a zero pistol each costs 10,000 gp (which is, for example, more expensive that a magical +2 weapon).
Expecting to get equipment like that at level 5 or earlier is... optimistic, to say the least.
Note that timeworn versions are half market price. Which makes a timeworn version (5,000 gp) just within reach of a 5th-level character's expected WBL (although, at nearly 50% of their total, they have to sacrifice in other aspects); at least if you want a reasonably balanced equipment distribution. A techslinger has deeds to help mitigate some of the drawbacks of timeworn technology, as well.
Now, being disappointed over not gaining even a timeworn version of a "true" tech firearm (as opposed to something like one-shot flare guns) before 4th-5th level is IMO like a character focused on the sunder maneuver being disappointed over not gaining a shatterspike sword before 4th-5th level...
OTOOH, not all archetypes are designed for PCs. While the techslinger's a more problematic case, I think anyone who thought that cybertechnology was going to be offered at level 1 should have moderated their expectations.The Cybersoldier doesn't swap out any abilities until 5th level, so for all practical purposes you don't take it until then.
The basic cyberarm, which is what that 5th level ability works with, costs 4750gp, which should be doable, if expensive at 5th level. Kind of ugly, since you don't really get anything out of it, but possible.
Except in the Iron gods AP, characters will not have access to anyone to buy one from, or a lab to make one/attach it to a character until at least the third book , and by then the character is already level 5 for some time.
So at least for IRON GODS AP, the access to the abilities come much later than on paper, simply because there are no cyber arms to buy or knowledge/facilities to get them.unlike a magic item, or weapon… simply BUYING a cyberarm doesn't do diddly for the cybersoldier, it's simply a 5000 gpv club.