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Does fusing Dragon Style and Pummeling Style allows me to add 1.5 Str bonus to all rolls, since i combine them in one "first unarmed strike" on any given round?
Pummeling Style is an odd duck in that it's effectively multiple hits that act as one by the end. The best interpretation of it is "Clustered Shots for fists". You get 1.5x Str on the first, as usual and the same damage you'd get on all the other hits as normal.
Pummeling Style is basically just "Full attack as normal and total it all up into one hit at the end".
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Yes, because Pummeling Style counts as a single attack, meaning all of the damage totaled is still part of your first attack, adding 1.5x every time.
I would sooner recommend the Horn of the Criosphinx feat to add 2x your strength, however.
What Ryjin said.
Come on guys, you got the amazing dream that monks have been drooling over for 15 years: a way to synergize their mobility and their many attacks all at once. Its amazing as it is, you don't need to cheese it into even more.
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I think this is a very clear-cut case, BigNorseWolf.
Quote: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Alright, that's more of a fluff line, but it certainly conveys the intent that the feat is meant to be treated as a single attack.
Quote: If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. Here the mechanics clearly treat it as a single attack, especially where "a confirmed critical hit" reinforces the singular.
Both the RAW and the RAI confirm that this is a single attack.
Since the entire attack is a single punch, it would be the first hit out of Dragon Style for the 1.5x str modifier damage.
The question of whether or not you think it's "too good" or "too greedy" is not only highly subjective but also has no bearing on the rules.
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I like your interpretation (just as liked to think of Crane Wing as melee Deflect Arrow, but, oh well) yet i wonder what we can get if to interpret RAW strictly as possible.
P.S. That what happen when you making post and walk off for 20 min... Anyway, it does not seems op as from my knowledge only MoMS can use 2 styles at once and he is not op in any way, seems he got some interesting new builds.
Its a single attack for critical confirmation. That doesn't make it a single attack for everything.
And EVERY monk is now a master of many styles, in no small part to get this puppy sooner.
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"As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch."
Yes, it's a single attack. The language is very clear on this.
If it makes you feel any better, it also means that a Swashbuckler's Opportune Parry and Riposte or pre-nerf Crane Wing can negate an entire Pummeling Style attack.
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BigNorseWolf wrote: Its a single attack for critical confirmation. That doesn't make it a single attack for everything.
And EVERY monk is now a master of many styles, in no small part to get this puppy sooner.
It's either a single attack or multiple attacks. It's a single attack for everything based on raw. That means concelment, cover, blur, displacement, Parry, Crane style, Block attack, but also hardness, DR, Feats, Charge bonuses (+2 to hit) exct. It's a single attack for EVERYTHING.
EDIT: Note that a MoMS cannot use pummeling style as it requires flurry. He must multiclass to use Pummeling Dragon.
Undone wrote: BigNorseWolf wrote: Its a single attack for critical confirmation. That doesn't make it a single attack for everything.
And EVERY monk is now a master of many styles, in no small part to get this puppy sooner.
It's either a single attack or multiple attacks. It's a single attack for everything based on raw. That means concelment, cover, blur, displacement, Parry, Crane style, Block attack, but also hardness, DR, Feats, Charge bonuses (+2 to hit) exct. It's a single attack for EVERYTHING.
EDIT: Note that a MoMS cannot use pummeling style as it requires flurry. He must multiclass to use Pummeling Dragon. A dip into the sacred fist warpriest should cover it.
No. Only the first attack is at 1.5
@Tom Sampson: just because it is treated as a single attack does not mean that all the attacks that are accumulated into it are treated as the first attack.
Similar reasoning as with combining sneak attack with scorching ray. Only the first get's the special rider.
pummeling style/charge + janni rush.
this made my DM look askance at me.
Note that for this combination dragon style specifically states the first damage roll each turn. There are multiple damage rolls each attack as such it still only applies once, to the first successful damage roll.
If it applied for example like the air blessing which says "+X Damage on a charge" then yes it would be each hit.
This specific combination does not work based on RAW.
Problem with Master of Many Styles and the Dragon Pummel is that Master of Many Styles replaces Flurry of Blows. So you need to take TWF to gain the benefits of such a Combo and wait till you hit +6 BaB. OR take two levels into Brawler. or something else someone will be sure to make note of.
Riders should go on the 1st damage roll only.
Pummeling is very specific about rolling the damage of each attack seperatlt and then add it to the total.
That means, to me at least, roll the damage like this is a normal full attack, add them together, multiply if crit.
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So there is no reason to go chasing after dragon style if it doesn't work RAW, just pick up dragon style and Horn of the Criosphinx.
Now when you charge, by RAW, all your attacks from pummeling style do 2.5x strength bonus (due to dragon ferocity and Horn of the Criosphinx, dragon style itself is completely ignored).
Ta da!
prototype00
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LoreKeeper wrote: No. Only the first attack is at 1.5
@Tom Sampson: just because it is treated as a single attack does not mean that all the attacks that are accumulated into it are treated as the first attack.
By definition, if it is treated as a single attack, then all the attacks that are accumulated into it are part of the first attack. You can't both treat it as a single attack and count your attacks iteratively. It defies logic.
Quote: Similar reasoning as with combining sneak attack with scorching ray. Only the first get's the special rider. No. The reasoning is very dissimilar. First off, sneak attack is a special beast with its own special rulings and restrictions, and second off scorching ray invokes volley rules on sneak attack because it is a multitude of attacks that are fired simultaneously. If you are playing a Magus and got Weapon Specialization (Ray) (which is FAQ legal), each ray will do +2 damage in Pathfinder. Anyway, Pummeling Style is only a single attack and sneak attack is not even being used here, so the comparison doesn't work.
Undone wrote: Note that for this combination dragon style specifically states the first damage roll each turn. There are multiple damage rolls each attack as such it still only applies once, to the first successful damage roll. Incorrect. If the text were what you say, then you would be right, but the text actually states: "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round." Not the first damage roll, the first unarmed strike.
Consider Pummeling Style's text which states: "As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch."
The text is clear here. The two feats are extremely compatible in their language so Dragon Style would apply just fine.
Mars Roma wrote: Problem with Master of Many Styles and the Dragon Pummel is that Master of Many Styles replaces Flurry of Blows. So you need to take TWF to gain the benefits of such a Combo and wait till you hit +6 BaB. OR take two levels into Brawler. or something else someone will be sure to make note of. Er, no. Master of Many Styles takes Style feats as bonus feats which lets him ignore all their prerequisites (except the Elemental Fist prereq). He can get Pummeling Charge on level 2 just fine.
Tom Sampson wrote: Er, no. Master of Many Styles takes Style feats as bonus feats which lets him ignore all their prerequisites (except the Elemental Fist prereq). He can get Pummeling Charge on level 2 just fine. This. It's the entire reason why people love dipping 1 or 2 levels of MoMS. Well, ok, at least 60% of the reason by my reckoning.
Undone wrote: EDIT: Note that a MoMS cannot use pummeling style as it requires flurry. He must multiclass to use Pummeling Dragon. I take it you missed the part where Master of Many Styles ignores all prerequisites for style feats, yeah?
Also, you people are insane if you think you get the 1.5x damage more than once. I would strongly consider making an unarmed strike against you if you try this at my table. Pummeling Style has you make all your attack rolls and damage rolls as normal.
Pummeling Style wrote: For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). You're not getting free damage here.
Tom Sampson wrote: If you are playing a Magus and got Weapon Specialization (Ray) (which is FAQ legal), each ray will do +2 damage in Pathfinder. Anyway, Pummeling Style is only a single attack and sneak attack is not even being used here, so the comparison doesn't work. Show me the wording in Weapon Specialization which says "Your first attack of the round gets +2 but the others don't" and your non-sequitor here will start to make some sense.
Tom Sampson wrote:
Undone wrote: Note that for this combination dragon style specifically states the first damage roll each turn. There are multiple damage rolls each attack as such it still only applies once, to the first successful damage roll. Incorrect. If the text were what you say, then you would be right, but the text actually states: "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round." Not the first damage roll, the first unarmed strike.
Consider Pummeling Style's text which states: "As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch."
The text is clear here. The two feats are extremely compatible in their language so Dragon Style would apply just fine.
I can't believe I misread it. You're 100% correct with that wording. I was sure it was the first damage roll not the first unarmed strike. In that case yes. You're making a single unarmed strike which makes it pretty clear they stack.
Quote: I take it you missed the part where Master of Many Styles ignores all prerequisites for style feats, yeah?
Also, you people are insane if you think you get the 1.5x damage more than once. I would strongly consider making an unarmed strike against you if you try this at my table. Pummeling Style has you make all your attack rolls and damage rolls as normal.
You can take it but to pummel you need flurry. It's in the feat effect.
As to the 1.5 str rule it's pretty straight forward and not really ambiguous. Pummeling style is like a reverse many shot. Instead of a single attack roll for multiple hits you make multiple attack rolls and damage rolls for a single hit. As a result it's definitely a single hit. The RAW and RAI are pretty clear it's 1 hit not say 3. As a result you'd get 4.5 str not 3.5 str over all hits.
Undone wrote: You can take it but to pummel you need flurry. It's in the feat effect. Don't skim. Reading words is not hard.
Pummeling Style wrote: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack.
I'm pretty sure they meant the next feat in the dragon style chain as well. That is, Dragon Ferocity.
The Morphling wrote: Show me the wording in Weapon Specialization which says "Your first attack of the round gets +2 but the others don't" and your non-sequitor here will start to make some sense. My entire point is that the sneak attack comparison doesn't work.
As for the Weapon Specialization point, I was just responding to the sneak attack example by noting it's a special beast that works unlike other things. You see, if your opponent is flat-footed from you winning initiative, you could scorching ray him 3 times and even though he stays flatfooted against everything, you would still only collect sneak attack bonus once (unlike a Weapon Specialization bonus) because sneak attacks don't follow normal rules. This unique behavior of sneak attack is part of my point on why sneak attack doesn't work for a comparison.
Pummeling Style is a different beast altogether.
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