Just to get out ahead of the game here. Oloch's Shield of Gorum role has this power (which no one will be using for a few months, unless they play him in RotR).
When you would bury an armor or weapon, you may discard (□ or recharge) it instead.
With the changes to Damiel and what not. I just want to make sure this still stands. He can discard armor and weapon that he buries, even if he doesn't play them. So, if he wants to bury cards to play a firearm, and some of those cards are armors or weapons, he can discard them instead. (Granted, his dexterity probably makes hanging onto the firearm rather impractical.) Or if a bane requires him to bury some cards and some of the cards are armor or weapon, he can discard them instead.
It doesn't seem as problematic as Damiel, since burying seems to only happen with cards in your possession, whether they be in your hand, your deck, or your discard pile. Plus I really like powers that push the envelope and boundaries of the game. But I thought I'd just throw it out there in advance.
It is one of the powers I'm looking forward to taking when the time presents itself, and wanted to make sure my plan was sound.
Thanks for being awesome and making awesome things.
Shield of Gorum looks stable to me.
Awesome. Thanks again for all the support you guys give.
You are welcome.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but don't you bury your hand & discard when you die? Sounds like Oloch is unkillable! As soon as he is killed he gets a deck of just weapons and armor! As long as his hand size is less than the total of those cards and he doesn't have to banish any, he fears nothing! That will definitely be errataed
That power was why The War Priest was a big favorite in both my play-test groups. So many cards were saved thanks to that! Also, even though it proved to be sub-optimal, he was able to use muskets to decent effect, especially with his reveal to add bonuses power.
He would die when he can't take a card from his deck. At that moment he is declared dead. He then buries his cards. In order to be alive again something has to declare him so. Check raise dead for an example. So even if he did discard some instead of bury, he wouldn't be alive. He would just have more cards if he was made alive.
But if we really need an errata, why not just throw a rule in about dead characters not playing cards or activating powers if it doesn't exist already.
I dug into the rule book and think it kind of covers it. I was just looking for the most egregious way someone could try to pedantically abuse the power. No player would honestly think you could do that.
I still can't get over recharging all those armors for the "reduce any to 0" powers... So awesome.
"Okay, looks like you failed the dexterity/acrobatics check... that's 5 fire damage."
"Nah, I'll recharge a card"
Depending on how prevalent before encounter damage becomes, Oloch could end up being a late game powerhouse. We'll just have to see.
I read this thread title and immediately thought: "Like, I wonder why I would ever want any?" XD
It's interesting how some people get excited about how he can't hardly take any damage, thus becoming nigh unkillable, and others (like me) are just like "meh, that slows you down too much. Not worth it."
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This power seems to interact really well with all the "drowning" mechanics in S&S as well. All those "check or bury a card" checks become discards instead. It's just really strong when you have a mandatory bury.
He can also never run out of time in the final Runelords scenario if you pick the recharge power.
I read this thread title and immediately thought: "Like, I wonder why I would ever want any?" XD
It's interesting how some people get excited about how he can't hardly take any damage, thus becoming nigh unkillable, and others (like me) are just like "meh, that slows you down too much. Not worth it."
Well, for me, random damage from monsters and barriers is probably the biggest threat to losing a scenario. I usually lose way more time recovering from a powerful attack then from keeping a single armor in my hand. Usually time isn't an issue for me unless I start taking a lot of damage. When Kyra got the Adamantite Plate Armor, she could walk into practically any encounter without fear, and it helped immensely in the fight against Karzoug.
Of course, there really aren't that many armors with that kind of power. Up until the last two adventures I'll agree that most armors are pretty cruddy. At least they can be cycled.
I'm going to have to take a closer look at Oloch now. I was doing some solo play with him for a couple of the basic scenarios and was a bit non-plussed about him.
Not completely turned off, but starting to wonder if he's got what it takes to play long term...
Long term is the only game he's got. Until he gets two or three power feats, Oloch is pretty awful. In my opinion, at least.
I would also add that despite his appearance and high strength score, he is really a support character. I am skeptical he will ever be effective solo, but he makes his group far more efficient.
Slogan: I take armors so you don't have too
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In our group of 6 that has played all 10 of the available scenarios so far, Oloch has pulled as much weight as everyone else in the group. His ability to display Weapons and Blessings to add to other checks has been pretty helpful, as has his built in ability to heal. He isn't afraid to explore with all of his weapons displayed (leaving nothing in his hand), as a natural d12 Strength with +2 melee is nothing to scoff at when someone else throws him a blessing... which isn't hard with 5 other people.
I'm going to have to take a closer look at Oloch now. I was doing some solo play with him for a couple of the basic scenarios and was a bit non-plussed about him.
Not completely turned off, but starting to wonder if he's got what it takes to play long term...
Well yeah, he's fairly useless in solo play. His main power doesn't work on his own checks. He's a lot better in a small group.
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Long term is the only game he's got. Until he gets two or three power feats, Oloch is pretty awful. In my opinion, at least.I'm going to have to take a closer look at Oloch now. I was doing some solo play with him for a couple of the basic scenarios and was a bit non-plussed about him.
Not completely turned off, but starting to wonder if he's got what it takes to play long term...
Our Oloch has been pretty beastly so far, great as support and good as a healer. It all depends on how you play him. Especially now that he took a feat to get his displays back at the start of his turn (I'm all for people having fun their own way, but if that isn't your first feat in multiplayer you're playing him wrong!) he's amazing!
He's not a fullblood caster, and it seems like anything besides that is usually awful in your opinion due to your play style.
Long term is the only game he's got. Until he gets two or three power feats, Oloch is pretty awful. In my opinion, at least.I'm going to have to take a closer look at Oloch now. I was doing some solo play with him for a couple of the basic scenarios and was a bit non-plussed about him.
Not completely turned off, but starting to wonder if he's got what it takes to play long term...
Our Oloch has been pretty beastly so far, great as support and good as a healer. It all depends on how you play him. Especially now that he took a feat to get his displays back at the start of his turn (I'm all for people having fun their own way, but if that isn't your first feat in multiplayer you're playing him wrong!) he's amazing!
He's not a fullblood caster, and it seems like anything besides that is usually awful in your opinion due to your play style.
Our Oloch took a handsize increase with his first power feat simply because a handsize of 4 sucks no matter what your other powers are... but returning his weapons/blessings to his hand is 100% his next investment.
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I disagree. Our Valeros in Runelords only took a hand size feat because he had to, and never needed the fifth card. A fifth for Oloch is great to me specifically BECAUSE of his power (ours often drops his hand for bonuses). However, and extra card for a +1 isn't that good. An extra card for a +1 that you can still burn on your turn is fantastic.
A hand size of 4 doesn't suck no matter what. Again, it's all about play style.
I feel like a hand size of 4 DOES suck no matter what, especially since it's basically always attached to characters who have lots of weapons and armor and fewer ways to move their hand--but it may not be the -most- sucky part about a character who needs other powers more, like Oloch seems to. I guess if you're playing in a huge group, sure, but for our average 2 character games you can count the turns where either of us explores only once on one hand. I have nightmares about playing someone like Valeros and turning over a boon or a barrier, so I can't even recharge one of the 4 weapons in my hand, and being like "welp, that's my turn." If I ain't discarding blessings, I ain't living.
That being said, if I were playing Oloch I'd go against instinct and get the display power first. Otherwise he can't use his biggest draw. I might even go Display in AP1 and +2 in AP2, if I was feeling really frisky. It goes against all my better judgment, but it seems to fit him being a team player.
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In a 2 man, yeah I can't think of anyone who would run well with a size 4. We had a 4 man group though, and even if someone is rolling d4s, we burn what we have to for them to defeat a card if failing has enough of a drawback (example, Goblin Keelhaulin, I really want to find that card!).
Oloch's second feat would definitely be tough. You wouldn't need as big of a hand if your assists are helping more, but between his skipping an explore to heal, and wanting to help as much as possible since he'd get cards back at the start of his turn, more cards is good and I'm torn on what I'd take second.
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Just going to throw this out there:
Hawkmoon is here asking about Oloch in particular, and while I'm not sure he's expressed this on the boards, Oloch is one of his favorite characters. Oloch and Feiya.
This should probably be a pretty good indicator that the character is not "pretty awful." It's all about play-style...some people will like and do well with some characters, and other people will prefer other play-styles. There are a lot of character choices here, many times the number that were available only a few months ago in Runelords, so there should be something for almost everyone, and every character will have some group-composition, play-style, and / or game situation where they will particularly shine.
One of my favorite things about Pathfinder is the options for support characters. Most evident in Lem, but I really like how S&S has encouraged being all-rounders and sharing the load, with lots of characters having ways to sacrifice a bit to help out on the big checks. My wife and I mostly play video games, but I'd relate it to how most MMOs you're just stuck in the tank/healer/dps role with little options for buff and support otherwise. In Pathfinder our Lem and Freiya team are constantly recharging for each other, and I would've probably picked Oloch for our second run through if we'd had the Character Add-On at the time. As it is, he'll have to get in line (behind Merisiel) for our FOURTH run through, which will almost certainly never come, but it'd be nice if we had the time for it!
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I'm pretty much of the mind that there are no "OMGTHATCHARACTERISSOOOOHORRIBLEI'LLNVEVERPLAYIT!" sort of characters. Only because I'm pretty sure that Paizo would never let them make it into the final cut. That being said, I think that there are some folks that always try to fit the square peg in the round hole, have very mixed results, and blame the character for being broken, when it's really an ID-TEN-T error.
Half a session in, and I picked up on the fact that even though Oloch can hit really hard, he's really a dedicated support character.
And that's cool.
If I go long term with him, I'm definitely going to hit the reset card power feat first, and then the boost to 2 with the second power feat boost.
Then I'd maybe consider worrying about hand size.
They don't have to be a spellcaster for me to think that they're not horrible. But they need to pull their own weight in some way or another.
Too many armors and/or small hand sizes mean fewer explores or ways to help others, and since Cure is in the game, I think the standard PACG cleric healing ability is a bit too expensive for what it does (far from worthless, but I'd rather have a different power).
Oloch's display ability really helps him pull his weight, despite having these "problems." He is not worthless. But there are more than a dozen characters I would say are better. Especially since he's so starved for power feats early on. (Would it really have been so bad for him to have had the start of turn ability from the git-go?)
(Would it really have been so bad for him to have had the start of turn ability from the git-go?)
It might have. Once you play him a bit and see how powerful that can become, especially for the person taking their turn right before Oloch. Which, by the way, makes him a character to give serious thought to turn order.
9 of the 15 cards in his deck can be displayed for his power. Take the +2 and beginning of the turn upgrades, and he'll pretty much average a +4 or +6 to give to others between his turns. For the character with the turn right before him, he might as well spend them if he hasn't already, since at the start of his turn he'll be getting them back.
If I weren't playing Oloch, I would love to be sitting 1 seat counterclockwise from him.
If I weren't playing Oloch, I would love to be sitting 1 seat counterclockwise from him.
Does the game specify this somewhere, or are you just going with the standard clockwise turn order most people use? Not that people can't just rearrange their seats, or just do whatever. I know my groups always determined turn order based on other considerations, like giving friends cards they were dealt at the start of the turn.
Decide Who Goes First. Starting with whichever player the group chooses, take turns proceeding clockwise
That said, I think when I played we always went counter clockwise. As long as you don't change turn order mid-scenario I don't think it matters. I suppose for OP it does, if there is any disagreement about turn order.
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For the games I've played with multiple people, I've always gone clockwise. That's just force of habit based on other board games I've played, such as Carcasonne or Catan. My wife and I are playing through S&S right now using two characters each and we take turns who is going. (I play Jirelle, she plays Seltyiel, I play Miriselle, she plays Lem, repeat.)
I'm going to say for OP the standard procedure will be to go clockwise.
Yeah, as mentioned it is the order in the rulebook. Though like others have said, as long as you don't change the order I don't see it mattering. That is true with most games that tell you to take turns clockwise or in some other simply fashion. They are really just saying, figure out a way to go in order and for it to be simple to know whose turn is next.
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I'm playing Oloch and go everywhere with Ranzak. He explores a lot, so burns through a lot of cards, and gets extra explores when he acquires something. But, I get to fight all the monsters he evades, which Oloch is very good at. We make a great team :) He almost always gives me a card at the start of his turn, something he has acquired or the Healing spell in his starting deck. Which gives me more Weapons or Blessings to display and a card to use on my turn to heal him back up. So far, it has been working out great for us.
The team also has the Druid, Witch, & Gunsslinger.
But Ranzak & Oloch team up everywhere :)
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I'm playing Oloch and go everywhere with Ranzak. He explores a lot, so burns through a lot of cards, and gets extra explores when he acquires something. But, I get to fight all the monsters he evades, which Oloch is very good at. We make a great team :) He almost always gives me a card at the start of his turn, something he has acquired or the Healing spell in his starting deck. Which gives me more Weapons or Blessings to display and a card to use on my turn to heal him back up. So far, it has been working out great for us.
The team also has the Druid, Witch, & Gunsslinger.
But Ranzak & Oloch team up everywhere :)
Those two do sound really good. Ranzak explores enough to make up for trundling Oloch, combat gets handled effectively, boons get acquired, Oloch gets a few extra cars to play with, Ranzak can get healed...
Brilliant. :D