Due to having freed a marid genie from imprisonment, she has offered to grant the party one casting of wish each. Unfortunately, the first wish was used to free her, though the players eagerly await for the coming years where they can each make their respective wish. (Due to the nature of the campaign, this may well actually happen.)
They recently approached me about how I might be handling this. I'm not one to screw over players utilizing beneficial abilities, so I told them that anything mentioned in the wish spell would work automatically and without any detrimental effects. Anything outside of that list risks causing the spell to fail entirely, or to not perform as intended. However, I told them not to worry about phrasing. They need only make the request to me as a player, and once I clearly understand what it is they want as a GM, I will inform them whether I think it is beyond the power of a traditional wish spell (where they must then decide whether it is worth the risk to proceed). In any event, it will be assumed the character phrased the wish carefully and succinctly (in other words, there will be no need for contractual write ups or anything of the sort).
However, it seems clear to me now, that my players intend to go well beyond the limits of the wish spell.
Some possible ideas they have presented to me already are as follows:
- Allow their sailing ship to submerge and travel beneath the waves without harm to the crew.
- Allow their sailing ship to fly at will.
- Turn their ship into a giant animated object (note that the marid's caster level is too low for the size of the ship).
- Somehow facilitate travel to and from the ship, such as having a mobile portal constructed on board.
- To possess a minor artifact, such as the mantis blade (the wisher herself is an established Red Mantis in high standing).
- An amount of wealth and/or magical gear that would not only exceed those listed in v3.5's wish spell, but also wreck any chance of keeping the characters wealth by level on track.
Should they settle on these wishes, how shall I respond? I'm inclined to allow the first two without any detrimental effects, but how would I run such an effect? I'm also inclined to allow the latter two, but with some potential for detriment (such as the items/wealth coming to them from a previous owner rather than from thin air).
If they were focused on making a submersible, you *could* allow them to make a series of wishes... I wish the ship could submerge and rise at the direciton of the helm; I wish the crew would not be harmed by the water while submerged; I wish the ship had propulsion while submerged.
For what it's worth, that'd be pretty cool and the Players would remember the campaign for the rest of their days :)
Wish Three however... The players have been warned that overburdening hte wish acan cause it to go astray or simply fail... let them wish.
:)
The submersible ship one could copy a spell from D&D 3.5 spell compendium, allowing a ship to submerge for 1 hour per caster level. If the ship remains underwater past this, it sinks.
If the ship is enchanted to do this once per day, it isn't too unbalancing.
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Artifact and/or expensive item are basically going to run with the same storyline really. Get it from somebody else, person is pissed and come get it back, which can be good or bad, depending on the situation.
Wealth teleporting a large part of a dragon hoard is sure to get the dragon attention, bonus point if it is a red dragon, so he can literally come there, all megatron furious.
. . .
However, it seems clear to me now, that my players intend to go well beyond the limits of the wish spell.Some possible ideas they have presented to me already are as follows:
- Allow their sailing ship to submerge and travel beneath the waves without harm to the crew.
- To possess a minor artifact, such as the mantis blade (the wisher herself is an established Red Mantis in high standing).
- An amount of wealth and/or magical gear that would not only exceed those listed in v3.5's wish spell, but also wreck any chance of keeping the characters wealth by level on track. . . .
Creating a bubble of air the size of the ship is awesome magically, but it doesn't change TOO much. The bubble probably wouldn't allow for cannon fire under water/past the barrier. Say for example, they see a wreck they want to explore... but they have to surface to dispel the barrier to get to it. Otherwise, if they manage to dispel the bubble barrier underwater, they've just capsized their ship. (It's not an actual submarine.)
The mantis blade... it's not too bad, as long as the party is higher level. If they aren't at least a decent level (determined by you) then the sword could grant some of it's spell like abilities, but not all, as it sees the character as a kindred soul, but not completely worthy enough for it's power.
Too much stuff?... Well, it could be as simple as the genie knew the limits of the spell, and just emulated a spell within the range that could accomplish it... like teleporting a dragon's hoard to the characters, which in turn will give them a new enemy that they need to handle post haste.
What? Marid's are chaotic neutral...
Edit: Whoops! I spent too long pondering my response. Eltacolibre had the same idea about the excessive money/dragon hoard... Great minds and all. :)
The ship idea just seems cool and would be fun for a campaign without presenting any balance issues. As for how you would run it, I'd treat it as the ship having the ability to submerge (perhaps 10-20 feet a round) and while underwater it would maneuver/act just like a regular ship above water would be able to. It would include the ability of the crew to breath water as long as they were on the ship/in the rigging (maybe within 10' of any part of the ship) possibly if you were feeling generous on the ship would confer a freedom of movement effect for the crew as well.
AS for the others, the traditional (fairy tale) way that wishes go wrong is that they get what they want, but their is a catch/hidden cost.
For example, you get a mantis blade, but that blade didn't just come from nowhere, it belonged to someone, obviously someone pretty scary and they want it back... This is particularly true for artifacts since usually they are unique items.
It is also possible to include a curse into items wished for, since you don't seem to want to teach them about the perils of greed, you could have a curse that makes the item(s) wished for less useful than expected but still a positive benefit. The exact details would probably be have to be tied to the character and item in question. And of course a simple remove curse is not going to fix the problem....
I agree I would allow some of those affects with multiple people using up their wish. I wouldn't allow any of them with only 1 wish.
Hmmm... I guess I might allow 1-4 with limited charges that can't be recharged (except by another wish).
Some possible ideas they have presented to me already are as follows:
- Allow their sailing ship to submerge and travel beneath the waves without harm to the crew.
- Allow their sailing ship to fly at will.
There was an evocation spell in 3.5 explicitly for the first part, and the second part is covered in at least a few places, one of which I know for a fact is in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide.
Now, what would an animated ship do that an unanimated one could not? Let's see... it could run itself without intervention so long as it follows a simple program, so essentially a permanent unseen crew spell.
Use the ropes as attacks? I would have the equivalent of a black tentacles that only targets enemies, and only covering areas of the ship where there are lots of dangling ropes. Moveable interior furnishings are not animated.
The need for the ship's rigging to maintain at least a semblance of plausibility would prevent, say, using the mast as a slam attack, for example.
Using the anchor as a weapon? Well, now we have problems, because that huge hunk of iron would do obscene damage.
I would rule that using the anchor as a weapon is so unwieldy that it follows the rules for the heavy catapult. The ship can "reload" itself, but it can't change the targeted square (or gain the bonus for multiple successive attacks on the same square) unless actively guided with a move action.
Some additional wishes seem to have appeared in the original post...or my mind is going..either is possible...
Flying ship: This could present balance problems. If similar things exist in your campaign world, then it probably isn't much of an issue, if not, then their are some potential problems, but for the most part it is much like an underwater ship, it just allows the party to get to the next adventure site.
An animated object ship would be fairly powerful. I'd probably go with it, but also make it intelligent and at least a little uncooperative or annoying. The Genuine People Personalities feature from the Hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy seems like a good place to start.
Having your ship have star trek transporters is hugely powerful. However their are more limited things that might be appropriate. Only being able to return, having a limited distance, and once per day per person type limitations can make it more balanced.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/vehicles/air-vehicles/alchemical- dragon
This is already a flying ship, it costs 100,000g. They could conceivably convert their ship and I don't think it brakes old wish gold cap.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/vehicles/air-vehicles/airship
This one is only 50,000 and it is an airship.
Isn't there a 7th or 8th level spell that creates another (small) plane of existence? From that perspective, none of these wishes sound entirely unreasonable.
The spell description does not address whether it can create a new magic item, so I'd definitely have the Mantis Blade come from someone who isn't happy about the turn of events. Not only is it logical, it also makes for an interesting plot twist. And the same is true about the Dragon Hoard. I would certainly grant that. I'd be very surprised if the Dragon didn't have the ability to find out where his treasure went. I'd be disappointed if he didn't try to remedy the situation.
When you give players that many wishes, they are *always* going to shoot for stuff like this. I would.
(I once had a campaign (way back in 2nd Edition--yes, I'm old) where we got a couple of wishes early on and we did something similar. We ended up with a large sailing ship that could fly and could also shrink down small enough to stow in a bag of holding. Having such a thing made us incredibly powerful. It also pretty much ruined the campaign. It was definitely a case of "careful what you wish for").
Players are always going to go for the gold. That's why I would never give out so many wishes--unless it was near the end of the campaign.
On the flip side, yes, you could strictly adhere to the rules, but where's the fun in that? Wishes are supposed to be orgasmically *AWESOME*. Don't dole 'em out if you're not gonna make with the goods.
I don't think either flying or acting as a fully capable submarine is that unbalancing. Especially the submarine thing. Is a submarine better than a ship? Probably. But how much better? The main thing I can think of in terms of balance is that it allows the PCs to sneak up on their enemies. But that sounds all kinds of awesome. Hell, I'd like to join them. I don't think it would allow them to do much that they couldn't do with an ordinary ship, and the few things they could do are not problems--they are opportunities to take the campaign in new directions (both literally and figuratively). Now they get to explore the depths of the oceans. Again, not overpowering. Just awesome. Maybe there isn't much going on down there. But what if there is?
(GM Stream of consciousness spoilerized due to being a huge tangent)
They could have all kinds of crazy adventures, not unlike the Octonauts. Maybe one of them gets swallowed by a whaleshark (or a Dragon Turtle). Maybe they find a long lost sunken pirate ship with a dark secret? Maybe they discover a new species of sea creature that has never been seen before and submit it to the Pathfinder Chronicles--but maybe someone else wants to steal credit for the discovery and it becomes a race to see who can claim it first? Maybe there are two good-aligned aquatic factions who have a conflict of interest and are on the brink of war unless some heroes can recover the legendary MacGuffin? Maybe they discover a long forgotten, perfectly preserved, Azlanti Citadel that has been claimed by the nefarious Fish-men of the Embaral Ocean--after clearing the place of the scaly scourge, the PCs discover an ancient artifact long believed to have been destroyed and one that would have been better left beneath the waves--for its reemergence into the world dramatically shifts the balance of power in such a way that Golarion will never be the same again. . .
My point is it could open up all kinds of interesting new possibilities if you're willing to groove with it. Is your GM style more like Classical Music or Jazz?
It sort of comes down to "what sort of campaign do you want to play?" Do you want to play by the book? If so, then wishes aren't really that special. Yes, they're powerful, but they're very much in line with other 9th level spells. Or do you want to play in a world where *literally* anything is possible? I submit that wishes should be capable of darn near anything.
(In the interest of full disclosure, the last time I played in a campaign where any PC was high enough level to cast wish was back when BECMI was new and on store shelves. Yes, I am old. Now get out of my yard!)
Yeah I didn't think any where unreasonable for a wish. Heck for the mantis one I'd wish to be able to make my own legendary one that I could wield as tier 10.
If it helps, the player characters are all 10th-level pirates who are, at best, neutral (and all too willing to turn a blind eye when their more evil comrades commit heinous crimes). They already have access to spells like teleport and fly, so a flying ship or a portal doesn't really concern me (at least not in terms of breaking balance). It really just means they can bring their weak NPC crew along for the ride more easily.
Maybe I could stat out Blood Mistress Jakalyn, head of the Red Mantis order, so that she can magically appear in the Captain's cabin, artifact in hand? :D
If they could muster up enough caster level (not possible even at 20th level because a ship is too big). However, if you look at the spell and the entry for animate object it requires a caster level of 32 to make a ship into a animated object. Perhaps the use of 2 wishes should make this possible, probably with some extra cash for permanency. Flight can be done by making it fly the way any other creature could be made to fly. Hell worse case scenario is the headband that also grants increasing flight abilities (the name of which I have forgotten) where the +6 version gives constant flight.
Making it submersible....I'd just give them an continuous magic item that provides everyone in contact with the ship a water breathing and touch of the sea. And then the animated ship dives down of its own accord. Because it seems like it probably could if it wanted to.
For teleporting back to the ship...maybe a magic sextant that allows you to use Word of Recall, but it can only be used to go to the deck of the ship. And only once per day. If my math worked our right thats only about 24,000 gp value. Within the limits of a wish.
Have to agree that submerging/flying ship doesn't seem like it would be a problem at all. It wouldn't mess with game balance in ways that they couldn't already manage with level-appropriate spells, and it opens up some fun new possibilities for stories.
Please recall that this isn't really a thread about whether or not they are balanced, it's a thread seeking advice for how these wishes could best be handled/implemented.