Hello there
Been trying to find a post with this discussion, but all I could find was people talking about if you can be a cleric and an atheist..
But the thing is: in the game I'm playing at the moment, me and a player playing a cleric got to talking about the gods and planes, just to get some talk going so he had a better understanding of how the greater universe worked.
But we then started talking about one of the other players who is an atheist. She believes in the gods, but does not worship them in anyway and don't believe/want them to, have any influence in her life.. Which means, she doesn't want the cleric's blessings :P
So, what would happen to such atheists when they die?
Step 1. They die
Step 2. Go to the Boneyard to recieve judgement
Step 3. Profit!! They are sent to the place that has "dibs" on their soul, unless they have performed really poorly (you might be worshiping Abadar, but whats this!! You have sold bad wares, cheated on deals and killed small baby bunnies out of boredom?!.. That's one ticket to hell for ya' mate).
So, what if you were a person who generally was a good but did not worship any gods? Would you be allowed into heaven or another good plane, or would you simply stay in the Boneyard for all eternity?
I just can't imagine the later, since people would know this would happen to them (the gods are VERY real in Golarion), and the good gods are good and I can't imagine that they would just say: "You might have saved countless lives, helped those in need at every opportunity, but you didn't want to play with us, so our doors are closed.." Not to mention Hell might be able to lure the soul into their fold instead..
Any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated..
Kind Regards
Neros
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Per the article on this in Mummy's Mask...they go to whichever Plane suits their alignment like everyone else not specifically devoted to a God with an alignment different from theirs. Souls that reject the whole idea of the cycle of souls are in trouble, but atheists are treated just like everyone else.
So that's the official word on the subject, I think.
So there is no difference between a good person worshipping a good god from a good person not worshipping a good god? They both will go to heaven.
But what is the "perks" then for worshipping a god?
In Hell or the Abys, I seem to recal that they are thrown so fare down the orderladder, that they become things that don't even remember their former life. So there is a risk there..
We have discussed that maybe people simply stay in the Boneyard til they have come to terms with the fact: "Thats how the system works.. Deal with it or stay.."
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So there is no difference between a good person worshipping a good god from a good person not worshipping a good god? They both will go to heaven.
But what is the "perks" then for worshipping a god?
In Hell or the Abys, I seem to recal that they are thrown so fare down the orderladder, that they become things that don't even remember their former life. So there is a risk there..
Well, this is sorta one of the core differences between Good and Evil:
Good people help each other out because, y'know, it's the right thing to do. Ditto Good Gods. Evil people help someone out only if there's a personal connection or it's to their benefit. Ditto Evil Gods.
So, Good Gods are nice to Good people of the same Alignment even if they aren't followers of the god in question...while the same cannot be said for Evil Gods.
We have discussed that maybe people simply stay in the Boneyard til they have come to terms with the fact: "Thats how the system works.. Deal with it or stay.."
This is actually sorta true, but all you have to accept is the cycle itself, not the worship of any deity whatsoever.
So there is no difference between a good person worshipping a good god from a good person not worshipping a good god? They both will go to heaven.
But what is the "perks" then for worshipping a god?
In Hell or the Abys, I seem to recal that they are thrown so fare down the orderladder, that they become things that don't even remember their former life. So there is a risk there..
We have discussed that maybe people simply stay in the Boneyard til they have come to terms with the fact: "Thats how the system works.. Deal with it or stay.."
One of the benefits of following a diety (and being a faithful follower of that diety) is going to the diety's domain, even if your alignment isn't in sync with the diety. So a lawful neutral follower of Iomedae could wind up in Heaven, a neutral follower of Saranrae still goes to Nirvana, etc.
Where this gets more distinct is if the diety has a domain in a place that doesn't sync up with the diety's alignment. I can think of four off the top of my head:
Chaotic Neutral Calistria and Gorum both have domains in the Chaotic Good plane of Elysium. Calistria gets along with the azatas of Elysium, though the azatas may feel that Calistria parties too hard. There's implications that Gorum has some sort of defense pact with the azatas.
Neutral Evil Norgorbor and Chaotic Good Milani both have domains in the Lawful Neutral plane of Axis.
The two Axis domains are huge - Norgorbor's followers would normally go to Abaddon, but since Norgorbor managed to make a deal with the powers-that-be in Axis, his followers go to Axis instead of going to daemon country.
Milani's Axis domain is interesting because it used to be Aroden's, and she's holding it against all comers right now. Oddly, Milani's AP article doesn't discuss this realm at all, or whether she has a second realm in Elysium.
I'd also guess that a follower of a diety is more likely than a non-follower to make the transition from petitioner to exemplar (angel, demon, etc.), but that's speculation on my part.
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How high of a wisdom does this atheist character have? If it's low, she may simply understand that worship isn't required to be accepted into a sympathetically aligned afterlife, and she can carry on as she will.
If it's high, she may be presented with a spiritual dilemma, one that people who actively worship the gods seek to understand through prayer: that worship germinates true wisdom, and Wisdom (capital W) allows you to fully appreciate and understand the nature and structure of the afterlife you're given. Worship is like cramming for a degree in flora, fauna and physics of eternity. Without it you're entering the next stage of your soul's life woefully uneducated.
Btw, this is just a thought experiment for a setting with active gods and knowable mysteries, not my personal feelings on religion.
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I may have written two Pathfinder Tales novels about these very questions. :)
I would like to offer up unsolicited comment that James' novels are actually very good. They are my favorites of the Pathfinder Tales line.
More directly replying to the discussion, in Golarion, the gods are very much real. The issue of belief isn't important, in the same sense that belief in the continent on the other side of the world isn't important; that continent will continue to do what it does without your belief. I read that your player gets that, Neros, and that is good. The question you're asking is "what happens when someone doesn't venerate any god?"
In my readings, the answer is "nothing different". Mechanically, your soul would travel to the boneyard, where it would be judged by Pharasma. She would send it on to wherever it belonged, regardless of the question of worship. Evil, horrid people might end up as demon seedlings in the Abyss for instance.
Worship is not unlike clothing in Golarion; you wear what fits you but it doesn't dictate who you are. Nudists are allowed, and they too are judged by their thoughts and actions, not their lack-of-clothing.
Also, if I understood something in James' (second, I think) book correctly, I think that some truly single-minded people who refuse worship of the gods to the degree that they also refuse afterlife may in fact not get one, if Pharasma so judges.
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I was under the impression that, since on Golarion atheists are those who reject divine authority rather than their existence, basically just get a quiet place in the Boneyard where they can chill, talk philosophy and not be bothered by the deities.
I'd say Rahadoumi's opinion of Pharasma's basically "Yeah, she's going to judge me when I die, but she's gonna do that whether I try to appease her while I'm alive or don't, so I'm just gonna live like I normally do and not worry about it. Besides, the gods only live in the afterlife, they're not the rulers of it. It's not like if I go to Heaven or Axis I'll be OBLIGATED to worship the ones that live there. They've got their own sections of it that I can simply just avoid. It's in places like Hell and the Abyss where I've got to worry, so I should try to maintain a neutral or good alignment at the very least."
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My favorite explanation is in Vault of Souls where
Didn't James Jacobs say that sufficantly strong souls become free-willed entities that can wander the multiverse? That is refuted in Mummy's Mask though.
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Wait, what?! That's a thing?! D:
Vault of Souls is an old module (it's 3.5, not Pathfinder), and that's been retconned.
While many agnostic and atheist souls pass on to Outer Planes best aligned with their convictions, some dissidents object to the experiment of greater metaphysical reality — when given the chance to become petitioners and pass onto other realms, they actively refuse. These lost souls find crypts and crevices on Pharasma’s Spire where they might eternally brood on the failings of reality. Many mortal philosophies teach that all atheist souls meet this end, but in truth, atheists and alatrists who seek to pass on can experience the full range of afterlives just as adherents of any other belief system do.
It's the souls that voluntarily reject existence itself that become quarantined at the Boneyard.
I imagine the "Beyond the Vault of Souls" explanation took inspiration from Forgotten Realms' Wall of the Faithless, where the souls of non-believers are fused into a massive wall that surrounds the plane of the dead to serve some purpose beyond mortal understanding.
Oh yes that thing. The Wall was basically a And I Must Scream deal where you were fully aware that you were being sucked into oblivion. That was punishment for actively denying the gods.
That was in Neverwinter Nights 2 where you actually went to The Wall and Kelvemor, the god of the dead went 'Yep, that is what happens, and no you can't do a thing about it.'
I was under the impression that, since on Golarion atheists are those who reject divine authority rather than their existence, basically just get a quiet place in the Boneyard where they can chill, talk philosophy and not be bothered by the deities.
As shown in death's heretic you don't get to talk, nor hang out with others, simply a grave and eternal rest.
@OP
Also if you don't have a patron deity, some other faction (demons, devils etc.) might be able to get your soul, either while traveling there or make a case during the "trial" that your soul belongs with them. If you have a patron deity he would defenitely have issues and take action with the above situations.
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This question was answered in Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond on page 33 for hardline atheists and page 34 for more agnostic types.
For any visitor entering the Graveyard, the vast field of graves is without end. Then can travel for a thousand miles and never venture beyond it, all the while passing among the cold, quiet crypts that feel suffused with a sorrow at odds with cemeteries blessed by Pharasma's clergy on the Material Plane--no glory or rebirth awats the souls entrapped therein. Not all the spirits lead a dormant existence. Some wander in a confused, amnesiac have, while others desperately beg for aid or curse passersby with the fury of the damned. The rare few are at peace with their fate, and wander the graveyard as custodians or guardians.
Oh and sometimes Pharasma feeds the soul of an atheist to Groetus to keep him at bay from the Boneyard.
I'll note that the more recent River of Souls articles retcons/modifies what's in The Great Beyond.
The Graveyard of Souls would be the resting place for souls that choose to reject the afterlife itself.
Death's Heretic indicates that many Rahadoumi DO reject the outer planes and get quarantined - a final act of defiance against the gods.
Rahadoumi may very well disregard the very notion that Pharasma has the authority to judge them, even in death. Hence why they wind up where they do, they can't go elsewhere until they've been judged and they will not be judged.
Of course, the multi-verse being what it is, it's entirely possible more than one explanation is true at the time.
Of course, at least on very rare occasions, some of the refusenik souls might be able to escape. Not easy, but Urgathoa supposedly got to where she is by escaping, presumably despite Pharasma's wishes to the contrary. Not exactly an example you want to follow, but does give a very small sliver of potential for a refusenik with better intentions to escape as well.
I'll note that the more recent River of Souls articles retcons/modifies what's in The Great Beyond.
The Graveyard of Souls would be the resting place for souls that choose to reject the afterlife itself.
Death's Heretic indicates that many Rahadoumi DO reject the outer planes and get quarantined - a final act of defiance against the gods.
I would like to point out that while retcons affect what Paizo will consider "canon" going forward in their own published materials, any given DM is willing to go with any explanation they like, up to and including throwing all of Paizo's explanation's out the window and coming up with one of their own.
Retcon, schmetcon. Canon, schmanon. I still like what I like.
Lots of replies and input.. Good weekend :D
I am aware that I can just make up my own or borrow from another place. But first, I would like to know what the "official" answer is. Who knows, maybe its a twist that really falls into our gaming groups taste.
We did talk about the wall from 3.5, but if that was the case, no atheist should exist.. Gods are after all, a fact in Golarion. So people would know about it.. Unless they don't listen to the priests and clerics.... Which might happen. It happens in our world, but as said: Real Gods.
But I really like MrRetsej's input from the The Great Beyond, and relly falls to my taste. It is described as not being that nice a place, but, it all depends on your judgement really and how your soul accepts its fate.
So thanks for all the ideas and comments. Gave plenty of stuff to discuss with my group :)
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Didn't somebody come up with a word like "dystheist" to describe people in fantasy settings who refuse to worship gods? In other words, they know that the gods exist, they just don't like any of them.
In addition to the other (somewhat conflicting) sources cited here, Champions of Balance has a reference somewhere to the fate of atheists and agnostics.
Didn't somebody come up with a word like "dystheist" to describe people in fantasy settings who refuse to worship gods? In other words, they know that the gods exist, they just don't like any of them.
The best term I've found so far to define the Rahadoumi is alatrist. But even that's not really a perfect fit, since the Rahadoumi don't deny that divine magic/prayer works...
It would appear that it's hard to apply real-world labels to fantasy problems. :P