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Interesting rules question came up last night in our game.
My Oracle used Telekinesis to grapple a flying creature, but none of us could really suss out exactly how that should play out. Does it stop dead in mid air or does it plummet to the ground? What about on the subsequent pin?
We played it as the former, that it was held in place by the power of spell, and then was effectively pinned to the sky, but I'm curious if anyone has better insight on how this is supposed to play out by RAW.
Also, while I'm at it, what is the effective CMD of a telekinetic grapple for the grappled enemy to try to break? The spell only lists the CMB. We ruled it as the spell's CMB+10.
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
So we know they resolve like they normally would. Grapple is different in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5. In 3.5 it was having the guy drapped all over you. In Pathfinder its more like having a hold of the guys arms. The pinned condition is having the guy all over you.
So no, the flying creatuer doesn't just drop out of the sky. A check might be appropriate to see if he can remain flying, but he doesn't just drop because you grappled him.
Once the flyer is pinned I would say it depends on what his method of flight is to determine whether he falls or not. If he flys using wings or other physical methods than he cannot move or act while pinned and probably falls. If he has magical flight of some sort it probably doesn't care and he just remains pinned in the same spot.
10 + int + caster level seems like the appropriate CMD value to attempt to break loose (from the telekentic grapple).
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So if you fly with wings... you cannot move and fall.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.So if you fly with wings... you cannot move and fall.
Just because you can't move doesn't mean you can't keep flying. You can't move, because you can't get away from your square because the other creature has a hold on you. But it doesn't mean your wings can't still flap and keep you aloft.
In fact, it's a DC 15 fly check to hover in place.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.So if you fly with wings... you cannot move and fall.Just because you can't move doesn't mean you can't keep flying. You can't move, because you can't get away from your square because the other creature has a hold on you. But it doesn't mean your wings can't still flap and keep you aloft.
In fact, it's a DC 15 fly check to hover in place.
If you can't move you can't flap your wings. If you can't flap your wings you can't fly. If you can't fly gravity takes effect (aka: you fall).
If you can't move you can't flap your wings. If you can't flap your wings you can't fly. If you can't fly gravity takes effect (aka: you fall).A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.So if you fly with wings... you cannot move and fall.Just because you can't move doesn't mean you can't keep flying. You can't move, because you can't get away from your square because the other creature has a hold on you. But it doesn't mean your wings can't still flap and keep you aloft.
In fact, it's a DC 15 fly check to hover in place.
I think you're reading too much into "can't move". When you're grappled, you can make an attack or cast a spell with somatic components, albeit at a penalty. It's reasonable that you could flap your wings and hover (assuming a medium creature with wings can actually hover, but we don't want to go down that road).
You can't take actions that involve two hands when grappled.
Does that mean that you can't flap both wings? Maybe.
Face it; the rules don't tell us. Claxon imagines a telekinetic force around the body, legs, or arms. With this interpretation the beastie can flap and flap to stay aloft like a bird on a kite string.
Tiny Coffee Golem (cool name) imagines that the force has entangled the wings.
If you want to argue -- argue the premise not the conclusion. I would posit that because your size actually does affect the grapple; I imagine a force effect no larger than the caster wrapping up the target.
Thanks. :-)
I imagined the "entangled" wings because of the Pin maneuver done via telekinesis.
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Slightly more context.
I kinda liked the holding it in place and pinning it to the sky - it had a Vaderesque force-choke vibe to it. This PC has a long history of just about every enemy saving against his spells all the time, so it was a real personal victory. I really wanted to slam-dunk the thing against the ground like I was doing a touchdown dance.
You can't take actions that involve two hands when grappled.
Does that mean that you can't flap both wings? Maybe.
Face it; the rules don't tell us. Claxon imagines a telekinetic force around the body, legs, or arms. With this interpretation the beastie can flap and flap to stay aloft like a bird on a kite string.
Tiny Coffee Golem (cool name) imagines that the force has entangled the wings.
If you want to argue -- argue the premise not the conclusion. I would posit that because your size actually does affect the grapple; I imagine a force effect no larger than the caster wrapping up the target.
Thanks. :-)
I imagined the "entangled" wings because of the Pin maneuver done via telekinesis.
Right. You can pin, after you grapple. I agree that when you pin them you have a full body hold on them, including on their wings. And then they are unable to sustain flight if using wings. While only grappled they can still manage to hover.
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Additional context: Mergy is a player in the campaign.
The way we played it out was deadly enough without the creature also taking instant fall damage. I do like the idea of a winged creature needing to hover, but that would only require a DC 10 fly check to not plummet to the ground.
True enough. Maybe not even plummet, maybe just pressed to the ground without additional damage. Perhaps moving a sky-pinned enemy around at, say, 60'/rnd?
Personally, I liked the idea of pinning it against the side of a building. But that's just me.