The age old Debate: Charisma and Beauty.

[Thomas Long 175]

So I was looking at the reincarnate spell and this question occurred to me.

If charisma is altered by physical appearance, why doesn't reincarnate change it?

You could literally be the most hideous scarred troglodyte on earth and come back as a fairly normal looking elf, body's not marred or broken as its brand new. Yet your charisma would be the same.

In the same vein, you could be the most beautiful person in the world, come back with a completely different body and expect.... to still be incredibly beautiful?

[thaX]

In the 2nd edition rules, there was a seventh stat within the pages of Unearthed Arcana, Comeliness. I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut in the next edition when Wizards revived it.

Charisma is a measure of how you come across to people. That physical beauty may come into play is somewhat misleading. We have all heard about the knockout blonde who speaks with the nasal voice that seems to be complaining about something.

How pretty one is to another can be somewhat subjective between the races as well. A dwarf may look at the softness of a lady's beard while the most average elven lass may well be the most beautiful thing a human male has seen in his lifetime.

Troglodytes may scar themselves to look more appealing to other troglodytes. We may never know.

[blahpers]

Why don't the Disguise skill, illusions, or polymorph effects do it? Because Charisma rules are a bit schizophrenic. They include physical appearance as a component of the whole "able to project your personality" schtick, but then they often fail to account for changes in physical appearance that would normally result in a higher or lower overall score. That's not even getting into the "beauty is subjective" aspect of the problem--a beautiful elf might be horribly ugly to, say, a hobgoblin, while an ugly elf might be considered exotically beautiful.

[Pan]

Thats not how I interpret apearance. Its not pure physical attractiveness otherwise you wouldnt be scared of cthulhu you'd want to hump him. It's about how the individual carries themself. Through your appearance you are more noticable and therefore can effect those around you better because of it. You could have a scarred face pirate captain who is fugly but he uses his ugliness to intimidate people thus explaining his Cha bonus. If your body is changed through various means, you would adapt the way in which you use your charisma bonus not become more/less ugly.

[discosoc]

This whole "debate" is mostly the result of people not actually knowing what the word charisma means when they learned to play (usually as kids). So they try to simplify it down to how good someone looks, which obviously causes problems.

Charisma can very well be the result of the person just being very attractive, but that's just one non-exclusive possibility. A high charisma score represents your ability to influence the way people view and feel about you. That influence could be the result of having a perfect body and wearing nice clothing, or it could be the result of having a ton of confidence and natural "leadership" ability. It could be the difference between being incredibly ugly and often scaring small children, or being incredibly ugly and simply make people feel bad for you while causing children to laugh.

In the case of reincarnation, although you have a (sometimes very) different body, you are still you. If you had a high charisma and get reincarnated into a Troglodyte, your charisma still shines through. It very well may shine through *differently* but you still have it. In your case, your ability to influence people is no longer the result of having large boobs and a nice smile, but maybe the result of having a 1000 yard stare behind some eyes that have obviously seen some sh*t go down.

On the flip side, if you were an ugly Orc and got reincarnated into a hot elf body, your charisma isn't going to change because you still identify as an orc, not an elf. You'd retain the same mannerism, vocabulary, and habits as you did when you were an orc.

[Rynjin]

Charisma determines the quality of your appearance, and its memorableness, not the TYPE of your appearance.

You can be a plain looking or even vaguely handsome Elf with 7 Cha, you just do little to impress yourself on the person's memory or attract their attention.

Likewise, someone with 20 Cha can be hideous. And people will recoil from their visage and remember it as the ugliest person they've seen for a while.

James Jacobs wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

So, Charisma. And by extension, all stats.

Do you see them as affecting EVERY aspect that is listed in the stat description, or just one, most, or somewhere in between?

Ex: By "RAW" (not really the right word but we'll roll with it), can you have a character who is very attractive, but abrasive, unpersuasive, very uncharismatic, and have that suffice for a low Cha character?

Likewise, can a character with high Dex also be a bit of a klutz, or a low Dex character have quick hands? Or a high Wis character be lacking in all common sense, but with great perceptive powers and so forth?

There seems to be some argument about this on a fairly regular basis, and while it doesn't really affect much, I'd like your input on the matter.

And apologies if this has been asked before. There are a LOT of posts in this thread. =p

Charisma affects every aspect in its stat description; that's why we included those things in that description.

You can have a hideous looking person with a high charisma, and a beautiful person who doesn't have a particularly powerful personality; in both cases their high charisma is going to inspire fans and followers. You see this all the time in movie stars. That said, physical appearance is really NOT determined or set in stone by Charisma... but honestly? A potent appearance (be it beauty or ugliness) is ENHANCED by a high Charisma. Two identical twins with identical appearances don't have exactly the same Charismas... and the one with the higher score will be regarded as the uglier/more beautiful of the two.

Other stats don't really have this going on, really.

[Thomas Long 175]

Pan wrote:

Thats not how I interpret apearance. Its not pure physical attractiveness otherwise you wouldnt be scared of cthulhu you'd want to hump him. It's about how the individual carries themself. Through your appearance you are more noticable and therefore can effect those around you better because of it. You could have a scarred face pirate captain who is fugly but he uses his ugliness to intimidate people thus explaining his Cha bonus. If your body is changed through various means, you would adapt the way in which you use your charisma bonus not become more/less ugly.

And yet that scarred pirate would be just as good at getting chicks into the sack as he would be at intimidating, short of skill points.

[discosoc]

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Pan wrote:

Thats not how I interpret apearance. Its not pure physical attractiveness otherwise you wouldnt be scared of cthulhu you'd want to hump him. It's about how the individual carries themself. Through your appearance you are more noticable and therefore can effect those around you better because of it. You could have a scarred face pirate captain who is fugly but he uses his ugliness to intimidate people thus explaining his Cha bonus. If your body is changed through various means, you would adapt the way in which you use your charisma bonus not become more/less ugly.

And yet that scarred pirate would be just as good at getting chicks into the sack as he would be at intimidating, short of skill points.

If he chose to apply his charisma through charm, sure. That would be kind of weird and out of character for a typical fugly scarred up pirate captain who rules with fear and intimidation, though. But if the player has no interest in RP and is looking to work the mechanic over the table, then that's a player/GM issue.

And yes, I could totally see such a hideous pirate managing to legitimately attract women through charm if he actually wanted to. The guy would be *Swag Incarnate* not to mention in a position of power. Something lots of women place more importance on than looks or even personality.

[Pan]

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Pan wrote:

Thats not how I interpret apearance. Its not pure physical attractiveness otherwise you wouldnt be scared of cthulhu you'd want to hump him. It's about how the individual carries themself. Through your appearance you are more noticable and therefore can effect those around you better because of it. You could have a scarred face pirate captain who is fugly but he uses his ugliness to intimidate people thus explaining his Cha bonus. If your body is changed through various means, you would adapt the way in which you use your charisma bonus not become more/less ugly.

And yet that scarred pirate would be just as good at getting chicks into the sack as he would be at intimidating, short of skill points.

Well there is no seduce skill so he could friend them into it or more likely intimidate them into it but that is not relevant to his apperance type.

[Belazoar]

It would change, racial modifiers.

Outside of that your charisma is the same.

[Orthos]

Belazoar wrote:

It would change, racial modifiers.

Outside of that your charisma is the same.

Reincarnate ignores the racial modifiers to mental stats both for the original race and the new one. Only physical stats change. Specifies so in the spell.

[discosoc]

Belazoar wrote:

It would change, racial modifiers.

Outside of that your charisma is the same.

I believe only the physical abilities get adjusted (STR, DEX, CON). You remove those, and apply the ones (again, physical only) for the new race. INT, WIS, and CHA are left alone.

[Haladir]

In my game, I consider Charisma to be a purely mental stat, which has no bearing at all on a creature's physical appearance. I say that Charisma measure's a character's force of personality and ability to exert that force upon others.

I allow PCs to describe their physical appearance in any way they want. (Strikingly beautiful/handsome, plain and nondescript, scarred and hideous, whatever.)

If a player wants her character's physical appearance to affect game mechanics, she'll need to take appropriate feats and/or traits, and define their looks in those terms. (e.g. the Charmer trait, the Persuasive feat, Skill Focus: Bluff, etc.)

[Orthos]

Haladir's method is how I handle it as well. CHA score has absolutely zilch to do with physical appearance.

[Belazoar]

Whoops, sorry about that. Thanks guys.

Seems the game supports CHA not being tied to physical traits despite the description for it.

These things happen time to time. It's a good case for dm fiat.

[Zhayne]

Orthos wrote:

Haladir's method is how I handle it as well. CHA score has absolutely zilch to do with physical appearance.

Same here.

I've even considered divorcing the social skills from Charisma and making it a 'Power' stat used for all spells and spell-like abilities and such, so it's purely an internal power measurement rather than the odd amalgam of things it is now.

[Charender]

Zhayne wrote:

Orthos wrote:

Haladir's method is how I handle it as well. CHA score has absolutely zilch to do with physical appearance.

Same here.

I've even considered divorcing the social skills from Charisma and making it a 'Power' stat used for all spells and spell-like abilities and such, so it's purely an internal power measurement rather than the odd amalgam of things it is now.

This especially make sense when you look at all the stats and realize that the physical and mental stats mirror each other.

Wisdom = Mental Constitution
Intelligence = Mental Dexterity
Charisma = Mental Strength

Strength is about getting the physical world to do your bidding.

[Orthos]

Man, I never thought about it that way but that makes perfect sense.

... man finesse builds work MUCH better on the mental side! =P

[Digitalelf]

thaX wrote:

In the 2nd edition rules, there was a seventh stat within the pages of Unearthed Arcana, Comeliness. I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut in the next edition when Wizards revived it.

Comeliness was in the Unearthed Arcana, but Unearthed Arcana was a 1st edition product released in 1985.

Comeliness was dropped by TSR when 2nd edition was released in 1989...

[Freehold DM]

To the topic, if not the original post, after too many years of player stupidity/munchkinism, i have linked charisma to physical beauty in that they have a symbiotic relationship. You can be plain - seeming with low or even moderate charisma, but you cannot be hideous with a 20 charisma unless you are *specifically* going for intimidation or even horror factor (to use an old term) and have told me this at character creation; nor can your character be utterly gorgeous with a charisma of 3. It's frustrating for some, but after my experiences it's how I roll.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

What I'll contribute is that internal charisma leads to a greater outward beauty - but it can't be "reverse engineered." It's a one-way Venn diagram kind of thing: You can say people are beautiful because they're charismatic, but not that they're charismatic because they're beautiful.

[Vincent Takeda]

35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles...

Charisma can only be tied to appearance in one way: A high charisma will definitely give you a bulge in your pants... The question is will that bulge be in the front or the back.

[Thomas Long 175]

Vincent Takeda wrote:

35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles...

Some do

[Vincent Takeda]

Tech Sergeant Chen!

[Kazaan]

The best way to think of Charisma is that it measures how much Confidence/Self-Esteem you have. It isn't a scale with ugly on the low end and beautiful on the high end; it's a scale with a little on one end and a lot on the other end and you just decide what descriptors you're dealing with. You could even have identical siblings with differing Charisma scores. They would get completely different reactions from people and you cannot blame it on any factor of their physical appearance. Furthermore a magic wand doesn't really care how beautiful or ugly you are. What it cares about is how confident you are that you know how magic is supposed to work better than the universe does. Charisma, applied to disguise, is also about how able you are to not attract unwanted attention.

Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are purely physical stats. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are purely mental stats. So nothing in Charisma is going to be "based on" physical characteristics. Occasionally, a physical characteristic might be employed as a totem or tool of whatever Charisma-based rules element you are trying to employ; your Confidence/Self-Esteem takes the driver's seat but sometimes that manly scar across your face serves as an esteem booster (I'm so awesome). Other times that scar serves as a reminder of a failure that acts as a confidence detractor. But the driving force behind uses of Charisma is Confidence, not appearance. Lastly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (even though they are WotC IP). In the eyes of a Human, an Elf would likely be beautiful so a 7 Cha Elf is beautiful, but a 12 Cha Elf is more beautiful and a 25 Cha Elf is supernaturally beautiful. But in the eyes of an Orc, an Elf is considered ugly so a 7 Cha Elf is ugly, 12 Cha is uglier, and 25 Cha makes even the proudest Orc warrior vomit in disgust. You don't even need to cross racial boundaries to illustrate the principal. A Human who has a thing for redheads but dislikes blondes would function the same; a redhead is beautiful regardless of how high or low her Cha is, but higher means this particular Human considers that particular redheaded Human more beautiful. The reverse applies to the blonde. Maybe he's neutral towards blakes and brunettes so, high or low Cha, a blake is just a blake, at least as far as physical attractiveness based on hair color goes.

The crux of the matter is that "Beauty" is a qualitative assessment, not a quantitative one. Pretty, Ugly, Intimidating, these are all qualities. In other words, they are Opinions. And, as we all know, two people can conflict on matters of opinion and neither is incorrect. However two people cannot conflict on matters of fact unless at least one (possibly both) are incorrect.

PS:

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Vincent Takeda wrote:

35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles...

Some do

Cthulu senpai noticed me =^.^=

No, Cthulu senpai, yamete! ^o^;

[Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider]

i agree that charisma is entirely about confidence and self esteem, it is how sorcerers and undead can function. if you really wanted to base your physical appearance off of something, look at your physical attributes. they have a variety of ways they can work, not that an 18 strength means you are built like a bodybuilder, you could simply be well trimmed and well toned but fairly lean like most martial arts movie actors and most gymnasts.

gymnasts and martial artists are generally pretty strong, but they aren't bulky, they are lean and refined, many dancers are that way too. but the big issue with strength and dexterity is the divide and exclusivity, instead, both should affect attack and damage rolls together to build a more balanced warrior. the game shouldn't favor the guy with 18 strength and 14 dexterity, or the guy with 14 strength and 18 dexterity, it should be built around the guy with 16s in both.

[Thomas Long 175]

Kazaan wrote:

Nihongo ho hanashimasu ka

[Aranna]

Does this matter?
If it does somehow matter then look at it this way. Charisma is a lot of things, not just beauty. A high cha hot elf becomes a troll, you will have a hot troll instead. What?! You exclaim. Yes hotness is way more than curves (although look at WoW and their trolls can be hot if they wish) it is personal hygiene, fashion sense, personality, and mannerisms. The reverse is true, a low cha orc becoming an elf will be an unattractive elf. Because she won't have all those things beyond curves that make you attractive.

[Digitalelf]

Vincent Takeda wrote:

35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other.

And at the same time, Great Cthulhu's Charisma score in 1st edition AD&D was -7 (negative seven) which was so ghastly, that it caused creatures of 12 HD/Level or less to be stunned with fear and detestation until he was no longer in sight... Thus making "irrefutable proof" a relative term that is not so irrefutable.

Just sayin'...

[Freehold DM]

Kazaan wrote:

Cthulu senpai noticed me =^.^=

No, Cthulu senpai, yamete! ^o^;

YES

[Albatoonoe]

So, if Cthulhu isn't making anyone bite on the "beauty does not equal charisma" front, what about Baba Yaga with her 32 charisma?

[Vincent Takeda]

As an evolutionist summoner my eidolon can become a beautiful cthulhu.

[Haladir]

Digitalelf wrote:

thaX wrote:

In the 2nd edition rules, there was a seventh stat within the pages of Unearthed Arcana, Comeliness. I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut in the next edition when Wizards revived it.

Comeliness was in the Unearthed Arcana, but Unearthed Arcana was a 1st edition product released in 1985.

Comeliness was dropped by TSR when 2nd edition was released in 1989...

The only 3.5 take on the Comeliness stat that I'm aware of was in the controversial 2003 release The Book of Erotic Fantasy, by The Valar Project. (Released under OGL, but not the d20 System license.) That book got a great deal of negative press-- mainly because of the art (which was manipulated photographs of skin-baring models, rather than traditional fantasy art).

Anyway, that book took itself quite seriously, and was actually pretty good. The addition of the Comeliness stat, however, was one of the weaker parts of the game mechanics included.

I prefer not putting a numeric stat on physical attractiveness. Simply put, not everyone subscribes to the same standards of beauty, meaning that a comeliness score can never be an objective standard of anything. Some of us think that the hottest Paizo iconic is Imrijka, after all...

[LordSynos]

Haladir wrote:

Some of us think that the hottest Paizo iconic is Imrijka, after all...

You mean there's people who don't? O.o

[Alzrius]

Does Charisma include a component based on a character's physical appearance? Sure it does; it's right there in the ability description (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

The issue here isn't that people misunderstand the nature of what Charisma represents - it's that when you try to divide the sum total of a person's physical and mental characteristics into a grand total of six categories, you're going to end up mashing different aspects of who they are together under a single umbrella. Charisma is the result of that. It's been awkward since its implementation, but like most of the warts associated with D&D, has become associated with the game's sense of identity.

For good or for bad, beauty is one of the defining characteristics of what Charisma represents, unintuitively combining that with personal magnetism, leadership, and other force-of-personality-related qualities.

[Orthos]

I consider that addition to that line a mistake and thus ignore it/remove it.

[Kazaan]

Alzrius wrote:

Does Charisma include a component based on a character's physical appearance? Sure it does; it's right there in the ability description (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

The issue here isn't that people misunderstand the nature of what Charisma represents - it's that when you try to divide the sum total of a person's physical and mental characteristics into a grand total of six categories, you're going to end up mashing different aspects of who they are together under a single umbrella. Charisma is the result of that. It's been awkward since its implementation, but like most of the warts associated with D&D, has become associated with the game's sense of identity.

For good or for bad, beauty is one of the defining characteristics of what Charisma represents, unintuitively combining that with personal magnetism, leadership, and other force-of-personality-related qualities.

Again, Charisma measures a character's <various qualities>. If you have a personality, Charisma measures how strong or weak that personality is. If it's a funny personality, a low-Cha character is funny, but a higher-Cha character is more funny. You don't really get to a point low enough that you start becoming more of the opposite of funny; you just approach (but never quite reach) zero funny. If the character is irritating, a low-Cha character is irritating but a high-Cha character is more irritating. If a character is honorable, a low-Cha character is honorable but a high-Cha character is more honorable. The same goes for appearance. You take a quality of appearance (beautiful, ugly, intimidating, silly, etc.) and more Charisma means more of that quality. Confidence and esteem is what drives it all. Beauty doesn't define your Charisma but, rather, your Charisma defines your Beauty. Charisma determines how strong your Beauty would be to a person who is of the opinion that you are beautiful. Low-Cha means that such a person would find you modestly and plainly beautiful. High-Cha means that such a person finds you more beautiful. But Beauty is only one possibility for Appearance.

"He did great things. Terrible... but great."

[thaX]

Ah... 1st edition... right. So D&D vs. AD&D vs. AD&D 2nd edition.

I believe that most players/DMs used a colomeration of rules pulled from both editions back in the day. One DM told me that 2nd edition was 1st edition with built in house rules.

But yeah, I was using it in 2nd edition, even if the UA was officially a 1st edition add on.

[Vincent Takeda]

Mammy Graul gets a 10. If thats what's considered 'average' then I'm going to be playing blind oracles from here on out.

The 2e book Players Option: Skills and Powers let you break up your charisma into 2 parts, Leadership and Appearance. I think it was a maximum 4 point spread from the attribute roll... so someone with an 18 charisma could have a 16 leadership 20 appearance or a 20 leadership and a 16 appearance. Limiting the spread is what separates that system from one that works.

Using that system Cthulhu gets 37 leadership 33 appearance? Still not buying it... makes more sense that cthulhu gets a 67 leadership and a 3 appearance by my standards...

I'll give mammy graul a 17 leadership 3 appearance.

Just one of the ways they tried to tackle the issue in the past.

[Haladir]

Orthos wrote:

I consider that addition to that line a mistake and thus ignore it/remove it.

That's how I run it in my game.

IIRC, somewhere in James Jacobs' Ask Me thread, he said that he had lobbied to remove the "appearance" line in the Charisma description when PFRPG was in development, but got overruled because of history and compatibility.

[PathlessBeth]

Pan wrote:

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Pan wrote:

Thats not how I interpret apearance. Its not pure physical attractiveness otherwise you wouldnt be scared of cthulhu you'd want to hump him. It's about how the individual carries themself. Through your appearance you are more noticable and therefore can effect those around you better because of it. You could have a scarred face pirate captain who is fugly but he uses his ugliness to intimidate people thus explaining his Cha bonus. If your body is changed through various means, you would adapt the way in which you use your charisma bonus not become more/less ugly.

And yet that scarred pirate would be just as good at getting chicks into the sack as he would be at intimidating, short of skill points.

Well there is no seduce skill so he could friend them into it or more likely intimidate them into it but that is not relevant to his apperance type.

In Munchkin D20 there are a few additional skills beyond the core ones. One of them is called Seduce (Cha based):

Munchkin RPG PHB wrote:

If you need us to tell you what this is for, you shouldn't be taking this skill.

[Lucy_Valentine]

The short answer is that charisma is a desperate fudge of a stat and always has been. It's not a serious problem in a game about sneaking around and/or beating up monsters. It would be a much more serious issue in a game all about social interactions.

[K177Y C47]

Kazaan wrote:

Cthulu senpai noticed me =^.^=

No, Cthulu senpai, yamete! ^o^;

*blush*

Oh dear...

[K177Y C47]

Personally I would say I am a shining example of hwo CHA is not tied to physical stats xD.

I am small, petite, and quite honestly more "cute" than anything approaching "intimidating" or "beautiful" but out of my group of friends I am usually the one taking charge... I've been called... rather assertive more than once xD. And I was student body president in high school and I am current president for the junior class in my University... so my "charisma" comes more from me being able to mentally beat people down (and the fact that I took 3 years of debate probably helps a little bit! XD) more than any level of being "the hot girl in school" or "being the big person in school to scare people into voting for me"

[Loren Pechtel]

Haladir wrote:

The only 3.5 take on the Comeliness stat that I'm aware of was in the controversial 2003 release The Book of Erotic Fantasy, by The Valar Project. (Released under OGL, but not the d20 System license.) That book got a great deal of negative press-- mainly because of the art (which was manipulated photographs of skin-baring models, rather than traditional fantasy art).

Anyway, that book took itself quite seriously, and was actually pretty good. The addition of the Comeliness stat, however, was one of the weaker parts of the game mechanics included.

I prefer not putting a numeric stat on physical attractiveness. Simply put, not everyone subscribes to the same standards of beauty, meaning that a comeliness score can never be an objective standard of anything. Some of us think that the hottest Paizo iconic is Imrijka, after all...

Agreed. That book had a lot of good stuff but it needed polishing.

I think physical attractiveness can have a meaningful stat but it's of only limited usefulness. While no truly universal standard of beauty exists there is a considerable amount of agreement on what constitutes beautiful.

Would anyone disagree with her being beautiful:

http://kdmag.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/scarlett-johansson-14.jpg

and a lack of beauty here:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110215181612/villains/images/d/de/Hag. png[

??

(I tried embedding these with IMG tags, it didn't work. Is there some other way to embed or aren't we allowed to?)

The basic problem is that beauty is by species. You would need a big table of adjustments of how each species rates other species' beauty and it wouldn't just be adjustments, either. Looks are also not particularly of importance when one doesn't respond sexually to the species in question.

It's quite right that it doesn't rise to the level of the other stats, it's nowhere near as important. It also is of basically zero value unless your campaign goes into at least PG-13 territory.

I have tried multiple times to come up with a system I like but I've never been satisfied. In the rare situation that it's come up I've modeled it at as beauty = starting charisma but it's much easier to change and it can be changed by non-magical means (makeup.) You can use beauty in place of charisma when trying to influence a member of your own species or a species that finds your race sexually desirable. This only applies in the short run, though--in the long run you still have to use charisma.

[Aranna]

I think people are attaching beauty unnecessarily when in reality it's more about appearance. Take for example IRL if you see a woman wearing baggy unwashed clothing with a decidedly unhygienic way and a thick guttural manner of speaking you obviously don't associate her with the social elite and no one would take her words with the same gravity as you would a woman wearing a power suit with impeccable hygiene and a clear well enunciated way of speaking. This is why I think appearance matters to charisma not cup size or how slender your waist is.

[Freehold DM]

K177Y C47 wrote:

Personally I would say I am a shining example of hwo CHA is not tied to physical stats xD.

I am small, petite, and quite honestly more "cute" than anything approaching "intimidating" or "beautiful" but out of my group of friends I am usually the one taking charge... I've been called... rather assertive more than once xD. And I was student body president in high school and I am current president for the junior class in my University... so my "charisma" comes more from me being able to mentally beat people down (and the fact that I took 3 years of debate probably helps a little bit! XD) more than any level of being "the hot girl in school" or "being the big person in school to scare people into voting for me"

cute, hot blooded loudmouth girl = high charisma in my book. There is more than one road to attractiveness than standard "hot".

[TriOmegaZero]

Aranna wrote:

I think people are attaching beauty unnecessarily when in reality it's more about appearance.

Amen. Having a high Cha does not mean you are beautiful. It means you have a high appearance, and those things are not the same.

[Laurefindel]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Aranna wrote:

I think people are attaching beauty unnecessarily when in reality it's more about appearance.

Amen. Having a high Cha does not mean you are beautiful. It means you have a high appearance, and those things are not the same.

Most adventurers who see devils and demons with super high CHA score would agree. I mean despite its 23 CHA, the horned demon is not exactly a beauty-pageant winner... You wouldn't miss him in a crowd though!

[K177Y C47]

Freehold DM wrote:

K177Y C47 wrote:

Personally I would say I am a shining example of hwo CHA is not tied to physical stats xD.

I am small, petite, and quite honestly more "cute" than anything approaching "intimidating" or "beautiful" but out of my group of friends I am usually the one taking charge... I've been called... rather assertive more than once xD. And I was student body president in high school and I am current president for the junior class in my University... so my "charisma" comes more from me being able to mentally beat people down (and the fact that I took 3 years of debate probably helps a little bit! XD) more than any level of being "the hot girl in school" or "being the big person in school to scare people into voting for me"

cute, hot blooded loudmouth girl = high charisma in my book. There is more than one road to attractiveness than standard "hot".

Daw thanx xD.

But yeah, pretty much I would say I am the typical Diplomamancer (dumped Str, high Cha) but focused more on intimidate, despite my physical features not screaming "beautiful" :P