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I have a friend who wants to play a Kitsune Sorcerer who specializes in Enchantment spells for my upcoming campaign and they asked me for any advice on how to build the character. I told them I would toss it at you folks and see if there was anything you might come up with in addition to what we have.
Basically, the biggest flaw with the build is dealing with things that are immune to mind affecting spells. I suggested taking a side path in summoning spells, picking up things like Augment Summons, but there might be something else. Maybe just straight up blasting? Not terribly exciting.
As for the main schtick, it is pretty straight forward. Kitsune Sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline, Charisma 18 and Spell Focus (Enchantment) should mean that the DC to resist the enchantment spells should be 18 + Spell level (10 + Cha 4 + Fey 2 + SF 1 + Kitsune 1). DC 19 is pretty intense at level 1. Non-Compulsion Enchantments (not boosted by Fey Bloodline) are at 17 and regular spells are at 15 (that includes the level 1 spell level). By level 12, boost the Cha up to 22 or 24, Greater Spell Focus and the Kitsune racial favored class bonus would bring the DC up to 24 + spell level.
Any other suggestions? Neither one of us has looked over traits or extra feats. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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I have a friend who wants to play a Kitsune Sorcerer who specializes in Enchantment spells for my upcoming campaign and they asked me for any advice on how to build the character. I told them I would toss it at you folks and see if there was anything you might come up with in addition to what we have.
Basically, the biggest flaw with the build is dealing with things that are immune to mind affecting spells. I suggested taking a side path in summoning spells, picking up things like Augment Summons, but there might be something else. Maybe just straight up blasting? Not terribly exciting.
As for the main schtick, it is pretty straight forward. Kitsune Sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline, Charisma 18 and Spell Focus (Enchantment) should mean that the DC to resist the enchantment spells should be 18 + Spell level (10 + Cha 4 + Fey 2 + SF 1 + Kitsune 1). DC 19 is pretty intense at level 1. Non-Compulsion Enchantments (not boosted by Fey Bloodline) are at 17 and regular spells are at 15 (that includes the level 1 spell level). By level 12, boost the Cha up to 22 or 24, Greater Spell Focus and the Kitsune racial favored class bonus would bring the DC up to 24 + spell level.
Any other suggestions? Neither one of us has looked over traits or extra feats. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
There have been tons of kitsune fey builds that up the DCs to very high levels. A Very High Kitsune Sorcerer Build.
For me, the bigger question is how much DC do you really need, and is there anything else that you want to do with the character? I love some of the other aspects of being a kitsune -- you get Realistic Likeness at first level -- a chance to disguise yourself as *anything.*
What is this character like? Does s/he have special goals or a story to back up her power?
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As for traits, you may want to look at some of the interesting combat or magical traits. Here are a few that you may want to consider from Pupsocket's Trait Guide.
Reactionary (Combat, APG) +2 initiative.
Focused Mind (Magic, APG) +2 to Concentration checks. Better-than-half of Combat Casting, as it applies to all Concentration checks.
Gifted Adept (Magic, APG)/Secret of the Impossible Kingdom (Regional: Jalmeray, ISP): +1 CL for one spell.
Precocious Spellcaster (Regional: Taldor, TeoG): +1 CL for one 1. level spell and one cantrip. Not a trait bonus, so stackable.
Domineering (magic, Q&C): +1 DC for one Enchantment spell.
Havoc of the Society (Magic, FG, Sorcerer only): 1 point of force damage is very useful to ensure that a "rider" effect on the spell works.
Magical Lineage(Magic, APG)/Wayang Spellhunter (Regional: Minata, DEP): -1 SL adjustment for metamagic for 1 spell.
Transmuter of Korada (Magic, CoP): +1 CL for an entire school? Yes please.
Unseen but not undone (Magic, UC): Cast a bloodline spell Stilled 1/day. Once is usually all you need, and there’s no SL adjustment.
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Alas, this last one does you no good -- your subtype is shapechanger, so you would only affect other shapechangers.
Overwhelming Beauty (Magic, BoG): +1 DC for mind-affecting against creatures that share at least one subtype.
Hmm
Crossblood fey and impossible for enhchantment boosts and the ability to affect constructs. Take threnodic and coaxing spell for undead, oozes, and vermin, or buy a rod of them if there's gold to spare.
Also, Everyman Gaming, LLC did some 3rd-party options for kitsune here. They could be interesting if you get your DM to approve them.
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Crossblooded fey and serpintine
As someone who is playing a kitsune sorcerer (though I went Maestro bloodline) I think that you pay way too high a cost for going crossblooded. There are so few spells that sorcerers get to know. Losing one per level is a higher cost than I would be willing to pay. It would raise your DC, though!
Hmm
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It limits your spells but now your spells effect more targets. Your hold person now has a higher DC and can hold more targets. You grab a lesser rod of threnodic and you can effect everything but constructs. To be honest you can't win them all but you can win most. You just cast haste and let your group of mental slaves fight them.
Also the thing that sells serpentine cross blooded is that the targets understand your commands....less need for tongues and linguistics. So less spells but it makes those spells more versatile.
Summoner generally means you always have something you can do. Just be careful about which summons you pick -- do it just as much based on the specials that they give.
I think that works a lot better than making it all SoS spells.
Another option would be battle field control by changing the environment. Grease, cloud spells, wall spells, Glitterdust, etc. You could add some buff spells in there just to round it out.
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Crossblooded with the two bloodlines would be pretty powerful. But I can also see how they would come back and bite one in the butt. IDK, that may be worth it though. Having three extra creature types that could be targetted by their main schtick would be awesome. And it would probably hurt a little bit less at higher levels when they have magic items to take the burden off of their own spells a bit. It is something I will discuss with them.
I don't regularly take a look at Metamagic feats (because I play bad Casters/GM as bad casters?), so I never even knew about Threnodic Spell and Coaxing spell. Those would both solve the problem. Bit expensive for the rods, but it would also solve their problem.
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Crossblooded with the two bloodlines would be pretty powerful. But I can also see how they would come back and bite one in the butt. IDK, that may be worth it though. Having three extra creature types that could be targetted by their main schtick would be awesome. And it would probably hurt a little bit less at higher levels when they have magic items to take the burden off of their own spells a bit. It is something I will discuss with them.
I don't regularly take a look at Metamagic feats (because I play bad Casters/GM as bad casters?), so I never even knew about Threnodic Spell and Coaxing spell. Those would both solve the problem. Bit expensive for the rods, but it would also solve their problem.
What level are you starting the party at? If you are starting at a higher level, the cross-blooded thing can work because the character will have more spells known at that point. At level one, you'll just have one 1st level spell (Charm Person, I assume.) You won't get a second third level spell until level three. Though I suppose laughing touch, your bloodline power, could be used 7 times a day... But then you have to run in and touch the enemy. That's much closer than sorcerers want to go to melee at early levels.
I think it would depend on your player's personality, as to which way they should go with this. I would get tired of being a one-trick pony.
Hmm
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I would like to caution against the cross-blooded archetype as well, especially if you're going to be playing at lower levels at all. Its really, really limiting. Having said that, I have a build that was put together for an abortive Serpent's Skull run based conceptually on a twisted creature inspired by the 'Snakes & Foxes' from Wheel of Time, but one who kept Human form.
Snake Fang + True Strike made for a nice attack but Laughing Touch can make up for a lack of other spell options early on (and allows no save). The Improved Familiar expands character options a fair bit. In my experience Threnodic spell isn't all its cracked up to be because 1) undead have unusually high Will saves and 2) the spell still has to affect their type. Charm Person won't affect the Undead type, for example, regardless of what kind of creature the undead may have been before its transformation. Truth be told, the best option a Fey Sorcerer could have when dealing with something it can't charm, hold or dominate is to use a creature that's already charmed or dominated (i.e. 'I hit it with my Barbarian').
Kitsune Cross-blooded Sorcerer (Fey/Serpentine)
Attributes:
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 19 (+1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Traits:
Reactionary
Keeper of the Veil (Disguise)
Feats:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Extend Spell
7th - Silent Spell*
7th - Still Spell
9th - Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon)
11th - Piercing Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
13th - Persistent Spell
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person
17th - Expanded Arcana or Iron Will
19th - Improved Initiative*
19th - Expanded Arcana or Improved Iron Will
Bloodline Arcana:
+2 DC when casting spells from compulsion sub-school
Mind-Affecting spells treat animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids as humanoids who understand you
Bloodline Powers:
1st - Snake Fang or Laughing Touch
3rd - Serpent Friend
9th - Fleeting Glance
15th - Fey Magic
20th - Soul of the Fey or Scaled Soul
They are starting at level 1. So yeah, that could very much suck. I guess it is ultimately their decision. Can see the benefits of both.
To be honest with you, I can certainly see the appeal - we had a straight Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey) who absolutely owned in Rise of the Runelords, but she was well-built, well-played and I think that AP was particularly well-suited for her. I'd say straight Fey if they are playing from level 1, or a straight Serpentine, rather than going Crossblooded and having almost no known spells to take advantage of.
A better option though, in my opinion, is to kind of go the other way. A Human Wildblooded Sorcerer (Sylvan) will have a truly massive number of spells known at their disposal AND can have a full Animal Companion to boot. That's a ton of versatility in a single character.
Crossblooded with the two bloodlines would be pretty powerful. But I can also see how they would come back and bite one in the butt. IDK, that may be worth it though. Having three extra creature types that could be targetted by their main schtick would be awesome. And it would probably hurt a little bit less at higher levels when they have magic items to take the burden off of their own spells a bit. It is something I will discuss with them.
I don't regularly take a look at Metamagic feats (because I play bad Casters/GM as bad casters?), so I never even knew about Threnodic Spell and Coaxing spell. Those would both solve the problem. Bit expensive for the rods, but it would also solve their problem.
What level are you starting the party at? If you are starting at a higher level, the cross-blooded thing can work because the character will have more spells known at that point. At level one, you'll just have one 1st level spell (Charm Person, I assume.) You won't get a second third level spell until level three. Though I suppose laughing touch, your bloodline power, could be used 7 times a day... But then you have to run in and touch the enemy. That's much closer than sorcerers want to go to melee at early levels.
I think it would depend on your player's personality, as to which way they should go with this. I would get tired of being a one-trick pony.
Hmm
Just to clarify this - you won't know a second 1st level spell until 3rd level, and won't know any 2nd level spells until 5th. That's pretty harsh for a spellcaster of any stripe.
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A DC 19 daze and DC 20 sleep is pretty easy to ride the first 4 levels. In PFS you can ride scrolls and make due with a very limited list. Level 4 retrain sleep and you should be doing fine.
In PFS I would use the level 2 rebuild and use a strong level 1 build. That way you have 1500 gold to play with.
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I agree with Wiggs and Hmm. They are definitely correct about the limits of Crossblooded.
Don't forget about the -2 penalty on Will saves. It's a really terrible plan and will probably end up making the character ineffective/helpless in a lot of circumstances.
I have two Fey Sorcerers (PFS and Kingmaker). They're tough to play at low levels due to limited casting resources. Kitsune is definitely tougher to pull off than Human. Those extra spells known are really important.
Some suggestions:
Pick one key Enchantment spell at each spell level and then diversify. There's not much of a need for multiple Enchantment effects within one level, unless it's for flavor.
Spend plenty of time reviewing Enchantment spells before you choose. There are subtle differences; some are much better choices than others.
Get a Handy Haversack and invest in a ton of low level scrolls. It's a surprisingly useful strategy and answers the "what do I do when it's immune?" question.
Pick up a masterwork crossbow and plan on dragging it around for at least levels 1-3. You need to always have something useful to contribute in combat.
Make sure that as many as possible of the spells you choose to learn take full advantage of Caster Level, DC, and special bonuses. You can't afford to have many utility spells. You definitely can't afford to learn something that is just as effective when put on a scroll.
Basically, the biggest flaw with the build is dealing with things that are immune to mind affecting spells. I suggested taking a side path in summoning spells, picking up things like Augment Summons, but there might be something else. Maybe just straight up blasting? Not terribly exciting.
You're in the neighborhood; the trick to overcoming things with immunity to having their minds affected, is to take advantage of things that DON'T have that problem. Charms and dominates are your friends here. Facing down someone who's immune to your wiles? No problem, have the bugbear from earlier in the dungeon put an axe through that guy's face.
Another option? Skip sorcerer, go bard. You get a lot of the same Enchantment spells, at the same level as sorcerers do. You get all the perks of being a Kitsune. You DO lose the +5 DC at level 20, but let's be frank here - that's not a big deal. it first kicks in at level 4, and i can tell you that at level 4, the ability to wear armor, have hit points, boost your allies' combat ability by playing a kazoo, all while casting AND stabbing, is going to be a bigger bonus than +1 DC on enchantment spells. And all the way at level 20? It's STILL BETTER than +5 DC to spells most of what you're facing are immune to.
Hell, you can take a one-level Sorcerer dip (go Crossblooded or mongrel mage with magical knack, for this) in order to pick up those perks from bloodlines if they're must-haves.
But still, end of the day the only way for an enchanter character to overcome enchantment-immune encounters, is to bludgeon them with things other than Enchantment spells.
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After this very excellent discussion, the player later changed their minds and went with a more blast focused Efreet Bloodline Sorcerer. I was a bit sad, but ultimately it will probably work out better.
Since the player dropped the concept, I think I am going to pick it up for my new PFS character. Mine just died and I have been having difficulty thinking of something new. Rereading this post, I think it could be fun. I might have to be a bit choose-y with what adventurers I play (Note: Avoid Season 6 stuff until I can find a way to deal with Robots! The downfall of my last new character! lol).
Kitsune Sorcerer
Fort: +1 Ref: +3 Will: +2
Traits: Keeper of the Veil, Reactionary
Str 9 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 12 (+1) Int 12 (+1) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 18 (+4) (All level boosts go into Cha. Get Headband that increases Cha and later Cha/Int if able.)
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Bluff +9, Disguise +9, Knowledge: Arcana +5, (Diversify afterwards, grabbing other social skills and Knowledges, rather than stay exclusively with these skills)
Feats: Eschew Materials, Spell Focus: Enchantment (lvl 3 Realistic Likeness, lvl 5 Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, probably other metamagic from there.)
Spells: 0 - Daze (DC 18), Ray of Frost, Light, Prestidigitation
1- Charm Person (DC 19), Enlarge Person
Kitsune Bard (Because it was recommended, going to quickly build one just to compare)
Fort: # Ref: # Will: #
Traits: Reactionary,
Str 9 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 12 (+1) Int 12 (+1) Wis 10 (0) Cha 18 (+4)
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Bluff +8, Disguise +8 (+18 to appear human, +18 to impersonate someone else), Knowledge: Arcana +6, Knowledge: Planes +6, Performance: Wind Instruments +8, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +6 (all other Knowledges at +2)
Feats: Realistic Likeness (lvl 3 Spell Focus?
Spells: 0- Detect Magic, Daze (DC 15), Ghost Sounds (DC 14), Light
1 - Charm Person (DC 16),
I have to go to work, so I can't finish the Bard build right now. Looking over the two, I like that the Bard looks more versatile, with more skill points and other options in combat for when spells run out/don't work. I could build the Bard to have higher DCs, but it would only be 1 higher I believe. The Sorcerer on the other hand sacrifices some versatility for insane DCs and a better spell list.
Since the player dropped the concept, I think I am going to pick it up for my new PFS character.
As mentioned earlier - don't discount the Sylvan Wildblooded option. You lose +2 to your compulsions (more than made up for by the Kitsune racial bonuses) but you gain a full animal companion from level 1. That's huge, especially when you have a limited number of spells and your focus is fairly narrow.
Make sure you grab the Trait Adopted for the Gnomish racial Trait 'Animal Friend', and then take Boon Companion at 1st or 3rd level. Kitsune are fey creatures much like Gnomes, and being raised by Gnomes would help explain her less oriental origins.
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(Note: Avoid Season 6 stuff until I can find a way to deal with Robots! The downfall of my last new character! lol).
I played a couple scenarios from season 6 with my Kitsune Fey Sorcerer at Gen Con. It was good fun. I didn't feel helpless/useless at all.
Even though facing constructs is rough when you're enchantment focused, you always have other spells too.My list at level 5:
1: Entangle* Burning Hands, Liberating Command, Vanish, Magic Missile
2: Hideous Laughter* Glitterdust, Create Pit
Traded out Sleep for Liberating Command at 4th. He has a single PoSK 1 so far. Needs another one to learn Hydraulic Push.
Haste will be his first 3rd level spell.
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Now that this will be my PFS character instead of my players pc, I will say that I am very concerned with crossblooded. Being stuck with that few spells plus having your only good save negated is a big price to pay. I know it allows you to affect a lot of other creatures, but I don't think it is worth it. Better to go straight serpentine or impossible, imo.
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Now that this will be my PFS character instead of my players pc, I will say that I am very concerned with crossblooded. Being stuck with that few spells plus having your only good save negated is a big price to pay. I know it allows you to affect a lot of other creatures, but I don't think it is worth it. Better to go straight serpentine or impossible, imo.
In PFS expendables go a long way for the first 4 levels.
Tanglefoot bags, Acid/Alchemist flasks, Scrolls, wands, and a crossbow bolt.
0 level spells also can work well for the first 3 levels. PFS is not optimized encounters.
In PFS sometimes you don't need to contribute to every single fight at first 4 Levels either...sometimes the fighters/front-liners are enough to deal with problems as the pop up.
Pages of spell knowledge make up for the lost spells. There's not a whole lot of gear you need as a sorcerer other than a headband of charisma.
This is true stuff.
Don't forget the FCB for a Kitsune Sorcerer, +1/4 DC for Enchantment spells.
Consider a 1 level dip into Arcanist with the Potent Magic exploit. 3/day +2 to DC to a spell. And you can dump your Acanist spell slots to do so another 2-3 times per day.
Well, undead, serpentine and impossible bloodline all let you mindafect a lot more. I would not go crossblooded though, you loose too much.
Threnodic spell and coaxing spell are really helpfull feats, but overall better as rods somehow.
What i found really usefull is taking the sylvan bloodline, the mutated version of the fey bloodline. Not only is an animal companion something nice and cool, but it gives the sorcerer a lot more viability and to do in many cases. Especially if you focus on enchantment else.
Also i recommend the spells snowball or magic missile for damage effects.
Keeping an area attack around has proven worthwhile uncounted times in PFS too, so consider burning hands. And disrupt undead as a cantrip! (Constant and quite sure damage against undead untill mid levels.)
The kitsune feats are also pretty neat, especially realistic likeness and fox form. Combine fox form with that new ring!
Something that might work too is a Lotus Geisha Bard. Not as many spells, but being a bard is awesome too and you can do super enchantment + a lot of other things.
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I agree with big daddy jug.
Alchemist fire can replace burning hands.
a ray of frost can replace magic missle.
scrolls of mage armor are dirt cheap as is enlarge person.
Caltrops can act as an anti charge similar to grease.
tanglefoot bag can act as entangle.
thunderstone can act as alarm or deafness
The confirmation gives you easy access to a wayfinder for light source. As well as a 4 charge wand of burning hands at 3rd CL.
A good player can get around the penalties for the great benifits crossblooded brings. You dont have to have a spell list to answer everything every fight.
PFS actually makes it easier to adapt having slightly better than average wealth by level. Hell im use to a brutal GM who give only what you find and is split 4 ways. So each 1st level character going on 2 might have 400g as opposed to 1500 of PFS. And prestige points are also gold in the pocket.