Can you take multiple racial heritage feats? There is no rule against taking multiple feats and stacking refers to conferring a numerical bonus.
There is a rule against taking a feat multiple times though. You are not allowed to pick a single feat more than once.
Some feats can be taken more than once though, but they indicate it.
Secret Wizard wrote: There is a rule against taking a feat multiple times though. You are not allowed to pick a single feat more than once.
Some feats can be taken more than once though, but they indicate it.
Where is it. Everything I have read says if you take the same feat more than once it doesn't stack (core p 113). This implies you can take a feat more than once. Stacking says that numerical bonuses (p 11 core)((EDIT: SEE PAGE 13 ON STACKING NOT PAGE 11 ON BONUSES)) don't add, unless the feat specifically says so. Taking racial heritage for two different races doesn't count as stacking because it provides two different non-numerical advantages. If a feat would allow you to choose a stat bonus to any stat, then you could take it twice as long as you chose a different stat. I think some feats say you only take that feat once.
What source book or errata says you can't take the same feat twice unless the feat says you can?
I have a event coming up and I would appreciate a mod to answer this quickly.
Feat Descriptions, Pg 113, CRB under Benefits. The very passage you note, says that you can't benefit from the same Feat more than once unless it specifically says you can. There is no Special Notice on Racial Heritage, meaning that you can't benefit from it twice. Attempting to get around that by going "But I'm not taking the same benefit twice," doesn't fly.
Nocte ex Mortis wrote: Feat Descriptions, Pg 113, CRB under Benefits. The very passage you note, says that you can't benefit from the same Feat more than once unless it specifically says you can. There is no Special Notice on Racial Heritage, meaning that you can't benefit from it twice. Attempting to get around that by going "But I'm not taking the same benefit twice," doesn't fly. It doesn't say you can't "benefit" it says you can't "stack" and stacking refers to numerical bonuses. Sorry I posted page 11 on bonuses and meant to post page 13 on stacking:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together
bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or
statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same
type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies.
Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are
added together.
If there is another place that says you can't take feat twice unless it says so, I would like to know.
Uleaum wrote: Nocte ex Mortis wrote: Feat Descriptions, Pg 113, CRB under Benefits. The very passage you note, says that you can't benefit from the same Feat more than once unless it specifically says you can. There is no Special Notice on Racial Heritage, meaning that you can't benefit from it twice. Attempting to get around that by going "But I'm not taking the same benefit twice," doesn't fly. It doesn't say you can't "benefit" it says you can't "stack" and stacking refers to numerical bonuses. Sorry I posted page 11 on bonuses and meant to post page 13 on stacking:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together
bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or
statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same
type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies.
Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are
added together.
If there is another place that says you can't take feat twice unless it says so, I would like to know. Then why does the entry for Extra Discovery (and most other Extra feats) have this: "Special: You can gain Extra Discovery multiple times." And there are many feats which like Skill Focus which have this entry: "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill." Paizo wasted a lot of ink if your contention is true.
Uleaum wrote: Can you take multiple racial heritage feats? There is no rule against taking multiple feats and stacking refers to conferring a numerical bonus. If you want multiple heritages, the only viable way is to use the rules in the Bastards of Golarion book. You can make a human and multiple other races character that way.
Core Rulebook, pg114 wrote: Benefit:...If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. A "benefit" is broader that a "bonus". "Benefit" includes everything a feat has to offer listed under "benefits". Notably, the 3.5 SRD/PHB includes this line in the same paragraph:
3.5 PHB wrote: "In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once." I get your argument that "stacking" only refers to numerical bonuses and penalties, and that no where does it state you can't select the same feat more than once. But you know how feats are intended to work and how they've been played since 2000, so what's the point of arguing this?
Looking at the explanation of feats it says this "Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat." Then you see feats that have the line "Special: You can take this feat multiple times." It kind of points to being able to take feats multiple times unusual doesn't it?
Feats NEED the special line to be takes more than once.
blackbloodtroll wrote: What are trying to do? Pure unadulterated cheese. This is paragon surge build. I want to be able to use all the racial bonuses features of spells, like half-orc for boiling blood. If your going to cheese you might as well do it with style.
I can accomplish this by half/elf->paragon surge->racial heritage. Every day I can pick a new race and get a new set of features. I prefer to play humans, so I pick half-elf racial heritage to get the paragon surge, and then pick it again for the extra benefits.
graystone wrote: Uleaum wrote: Can you take multiple racial heritage feats? There is no rule against taking multiple feats and stacking refers to conferring a numerical bonus. If you want multiple heritages, the only viable way is to use the rules in the Bastards of Golarion book. You can make a human and multiple other races character that way. This is for society play so the custom races in Bastards of Golarion don't apply. Also it doesn't achieve what I want to do.
graystone wrote: Looking at the explanation of feats it says this "Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat." Then you see feats that have the line "Special: You can take this feat multiple times." It kind of points to being able to take feats multiple times unusual doesn't it?
Feats NEED the special line to be takes more than once.
Writing can be redundant, simply for clarity. Just because one feat statement is redundant, doesn't mean that all other feat statements must be redundant. Usually the "this feat can be taken several times" statement has special instruction for taking it several times that might not be obvious.
Read core P 113 again.
If a character has the same feat
more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated
otherwise in the description.
"NEED" means you can't take the feat without the special line. The way that sentence is written you can take the feat even if it doesn't do anything. I don't know of anyway to neutralize a single feat of another, but if that ability is ever introduced you could take a feat twice so that you could fight someone who takes away a single feat and keep your ability. I don't know if the dev's intended this, but it does serve as a rational basis for writing it this way.
Pathfinder dramatically increased the role of feats in character construction. Maybe they intended this so that there would be flexibility with feat choice. The only other mechanic that I know of that fundamentally changed from 3.5 was allowing intelligence changes to add or drop skills points. Maybe this was a mechanical change no one noticed, maybe the dev's didn't realize what they were writing.
Either way it's rules as written, and I want to make sure I'm reading it that way. I've run into several incorrect assumptions about how people think rules work (like you can't take a swift and immediate action in the same round because they are basically the same type of action, even though the rules specifically allow for it you read them properly). Just because you always played it that way doesn't mean it is rules as written. If the devs want to errata it go ahead. But until then don't expect me conform your ideal of how the system works. Show me how my logic is flawed if you want me to agree with you.
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Sure. There are quite a few Feats you can take multiple times.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Extra Discovery, etc. etc.
They're all the same Feat. Exactly the same Feat. Nothing in the wording of the Feat changes any time you take it.
However, each Feat that can apply more than one time, specifically notes that it doesn't apply to the same thing more than once. In fact, there isn't a single Feat I can think of in... ten, fifteen years? that works like you want it to, with the noted exceptions of the various Extra (X) Feats. You get ONE Racial Heritage Feat.
Any table you take this to in Society play will disqualify your character on the spot.
Nocte ex Mortis wrote: Sure. There are quite a few Feats you can take multiple times.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Extra Discovery, etc. etc.
They're all the same Feat. Exactly the same Feat. Nothing in the wording of the Feat changes any time you take it.
However, each Feat that can apply more than one time, specifically notes that it doesn't apply to the same thing more than once. In fact, there isn't a single Feat I can think of in... ten, fifteen years? that works like you want it to, with the noted exceptions of the various Extra (X) Feats. You get ONE Racial Heritage Feat.
Any table you take this to in Society play will disqualify your character on the spot.
I am curious as to why you think a character doing what I have describe would be disqualified. Assuming my logic is incorrect, I understand if you might think the paragon surge would fizzle. Assuming my logic is incorrect, I understand if you think the second racial heritage would have no affect. A half-elf can achieve the floating racial heritage I am seeking, so the play is allowed. The only question is can a human pull it off too.
For me, gaming is as much about the exploration and expression of rule combinations in unusual ways as it is about roleplay. Not everyone enjoys a rules lawyer, but I happen to be one. I try to simply what I do so it doesn't take a 20 minute lecture to explain it at a session.
So what about what I have describe should disqualify the character's I have, or did you mean to say disqualify the action?
You cannot take Racial Heritage twice. Any incorrect Feats will disqualify you in PFS. If you were to try this, you would waste your Paragon Surge for the day, due to the fact that it would, quite literally, do nothing. Duplicating a Feat you already have, that doesn't state you can get any benefit from it a second time, by any means, does... nothing.
Uleaum wrote:
Read core P 113 again.
If a character has the same feat
more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated
otherwise in the description.
"NEED" means you can't take the feat without the special line. The way that sentence is written you can take the feat even if it doesn't do anything. I don't know of...
To use your own quote, the benefits of a feat don't stack. Not unless the feat specifically says they do. Which means, when a feat has multiple options, you choose one. If later you take the feat again, the benefit doesn't stack and allow you to choose a secondary option.
One of the benefits in these cases is allowing you to pick multiple options. And yes, you'll absolutely be shot down in PFS. But if you want certainty on that account, hit up the PFS forum and ask if it's legal for PFS play.
Considering it's not legal for normal play, I doubt you'll get what you want.
Maybe I don't understand your goal and endgame because I don't see your build. I see a flaw in your understanding of Paragon Surge giving you the ability to choose a feat that has a prerequisite of Human. Maybe I am missing a ruling from somewhere but I don't see the spell saying you counted as human or elf the feat selection piece.
"You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell."
Can you shed light on how you see this working?
Are you starting as Human-> Racial heritage(Half-Elf) Paragon surge:racial hertage(something else)?
FuriousManwich wrote: Maybe I don't understand your goal and endgame because I don't see your build. I see a flaw in your understanding of Paragon Surge giving you the ability to choose a feat that has a prerequisite of Human. Maybe I am missing a ruling from somewhere but I don't see the spell saying you counted as human or elf the feat selection piece.
"You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell."
Can you shed light on how you see this working?
Are you starting as Human-> Racial heritage(Half-Elf) Paragon surge:racial hertage(something else)?
Half-elfs count as human and elf for everything, due to the elf blood race trait.
Ah, got caught thinking to hard and missed the tree for the forest.
Back to the OP:
I've never attempted what you are trying in PFS and I am by no means a final word on the rules. So say you get this, what is the next step in your build? Anymore "hidden gems"?
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