For example, greater magic fang has a mythic version and states it can be made permanent. If I cast mythic greater magic fang, then use a scroll of permanency, what happens? Is it wasted? Does it just refuse to activate? Does only the non-mythic version get permanencied? Does the whole thing get permanencied?
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Permanency doesn't have a Mythic version but...
"
Resilient: Any spell you cast as a mythic spell can also be cast in a resilient form that is harder to dispel or counters pell. Expend one additional use of mythic power; any check attempted in order to dispel the spell then takes a -4 penalty, and the spell can't be countered unless the opposing caster also expends a use of mythic power to overcome your spell's resilience (in which case the normal rules for counterspelling apply). You may combine the potent and resilient forms of a spell; to do so, you must expend a total of two additional uses of mythic power. You can cast potent and resilient forms of augmented mythic spells in the same manner."
Using a dose of Mythic power with your Pemanency should make it harder to dispel.
If you are casting permanency anyway, may as well chuck as many Mythic power point into it as possible.
You’re responding to an 8 year old conversation.
You're responding to a 19 minute old comment. <Grin>
If someone (clearly) can stumble upon and old discussion and find (incorrect) advise, someone can stumble upon a (mostly) old discussion and find newly corrected advise. Only thing worse than a necro'd thread is a new one.
Anyway, long time no see! Glad you're still around.
You’re responding to an 8 year old conversation.You're responding to a 19 minute old comment. <Grin>
If someone (clearly) can stumble upon and old discussion and find (incorrect) advise, someone can stumble upon a (mostly) old discussion and find newly corrected advise. Only thing worse than a necro'd thread is a new one.
Anyway, long time no see! Glad you're still around.
What the heck was I on that I made the same typo twice? Advice. Not advise. Sheesh.
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You’re responding to an 8 year old conversation.
Started by an OP that got permabanned :)
You’re responding to an 8 year old conversation.Started by an OP that got permabanned :)
Well, now I want to know more...
As for the question itself, I don't see why it matters if the spell is mythic or not. Permanency makes the spell permanent. Mythic Magic Fang is still Magic Fang. It's no different than if you cast Permanency on a Heightened Magic Fang.
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I'm of the opposite mind myself in that if the base spell can be made permanent then the mythic spell should be able to be made permanent. Mythic spells came after permanency and as far as I know there was never a myhtic version of permanency or discussion of its intereaction. So you can't really say they didn't get a call out as they're in the large group of spells that came after it and never got a ruling one way or another. For example life bubble or endure elements seem like prime candidates to make permanent but they're not on the list of spells for it either. In addition to which the permanency spell does say a GM may allow other spells to be made permanent so I suppose there's two parts to this question that need to be clarified.
1) If a mythic spell's base version can be made permanent can the mythic spell also be made permanent.
2) If the mythic spell doesn't automatically become allowed via part 1 can it be allowed via the last line of the permanency spell or is NOT allowed at all.
That is magic fang can be made permanent so does that automatically allow mythic magic fang to be made permanent. If it doesn't can mythic magic fang be allowed as another spell in the normal manner or are you not allowing mythic spells to be made permanent at all.
For the answers to 1 and 2 are yes however as demonstrated above this may not be an opinion shared by other people so it may need to be something that needs to be clarified by the GM before a game starts since as I said there was never any information in mythic spells or faqs to indicate one way or another how they interact with permanency.
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If mythic spells can be made permanent, what's the cost? Mythic versions are indubiously more powerful, but Permanency's material cost is solely dependant on spell level.
A permanent Mythic Magic Fang with high enough mythic tier has the exact same effect as a permanent Greater Magic Fang (with the 'all natural weapons' option), but only costs a third to make permanent. That is obviously not balanced, and no one can tell me that's intended.
Unless otherwise specified, a mythic spell works just like the non-mythic version of the spell
Permanency isn't specified, so the mythic version of the spell works just like the non-mythic version with regards to Permanency.
Sure, this is more powerful. It's mythic. This is far from the most problematic thing from allowing mythic in your game.
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If mythic spells can be made permanent, what's the cost? Mythic versions are indubiously more powerful, but Permanency's material cost is solely dependant on spell level.
A permanent Mythic Magic Fang with high enough mythic tier has the exact same effect as a permanent Greater Magic Fang (with the 'all natural weapons' option), but only costs a third to make permanent. That is obviously not balanced, and no one can tell me that's intended.
It may not be intended but its hardly the only effect that works out like that. Plenty of mythic spells don't balance that well even against each other take lightning bolt and fireball.
Base versions
Both 1d6 to 10D6 max, lightning bolt is a line while fireballs a circle (of sorts) and both 3rd level.
Mythic Lightning bolt
damage increases to 1d8 and creatures hit are staggerred.
Augment: one bend of 90 degrees and stun for a round.
Mythic Fireball
Damage increases to d10, reflex save or catch on fire taking 2d6 fire damage per round and extinguishing is based on spell dc
Augment: Max damage doubles to 20d10, area doubles to 40' and it NEGATES fire resistance/immunity for its damage.
You can debate that the mythic versions are roughly comparable but you can't claim the augmented versions are anywhere near the same simply by mythic fireball allowing its damage to bypass any resistance/immunity. You can now set a fire ELEMENTAL on fire damaging it and your initial damage is 20d10 vs mythic lightning bolts 10d8.
For me all that say's is you might need to introduce a mythic permanency or adjust the prices as a GM but you shouldn't be blanket banning something for occasional bad interactions like that. However as Melkiador said permanency is unless otherwise specified and there is no specification either way for mythic spells so per RAW it should work as normal.
It's mythic. This is far from the most problematic thing from allowing mythic in your game.
I was somewhat thinking about hired spellcasting, but there doesn't appear to be any material on that, so I guess it indeed doesn't make much of a difference. It's not as if the Permanency list was full of powerful spells - See Invisibility and Darkvision don't have a mythic versions (no see in darkness? WTF Paizo?), and Mythic Enlarge Person apparently has you walk on all fours, or else I can't explain the 10ft reach. Mythic GMF is really the only standout.
You can debate that the mythic versions are roughly comparable but you can't claim the augmented versions are anywhere near the same
I don't know, AoE stun is very powerful.
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It's mythic. This is far from the most problematic thing from allowing mythic in your game.I was somewhat thinking about hired spellcasting, but there doesn't appear to be any material on that, so I guess it indeed doesn't make much of a difference. It's not as if the Permanency list was full of powerful spells - See Invisibility and Darkvision don't have a mythic versions (no see in darkness? WTF Paizo?), and Mythic Enlarge Person apparently has you walk on all fours, or else I can't explain the 10ft reach. Mythic GMF is really the only standout.
You can debate that the mythic versions are roughly comparable but you can't claim the augmented versions are anywhere near the sameI don't know, AoE stun is very powerful.
Powerful yes but compare stunned for 1 round and a 90 degree bend vs negates fire immunity/resistance, double the max damage, double the area of effect. To me its not powerful enough to be considered comparable.
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RAW? Maybe, maybe not. You can make permanent the spell, but nothing says that you can make permanent the mythic effect.
Note what Casting Mythic sys:
If you know the mythic version of a spell, any time you cast the spell, you may expend one use of mythic power to convert the spell into its mythic version as you cast it.
You convert the spell to its mythic version. Strictly RAW it isn't the original spell anymore, it is a different version to which the original spell was converted.
RAI?
Mythic spells can’t be crafted into magic items unless the item is an artifact (for example, you can’t brew a potion of mythic cure light wounds).
shows that mythic spells are intended to be available unless you spend uses of mythic powers or you have something very special.
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RAW: My basis for thinking the default is that it can't be made permanent is that it is a different spell. The quotes above tell me how the mythic spell works and how we should fill in the blanks where it isn't spelled out. But it doesn't put mythic magic fang on the list, by raw, of things that can be made permanent.
RAI: I dont think the designers intended for spells that use a consumable daily resource (mythic power) to be made permanent. Casters will obviously choose slow days when daily uses of mythic power are inconsequential to make those spells permanent and then have its enduring benefit. It is tantamount to carrying over unused mythic power to another day.
Again, all this (like everything) is gm discretion, and that discretion/leniency is kind of encouraged with permancey. But my question is where is the default and for me the default is in is not allowed.
RAW? Maybe, maybe not. You can make permanent the spell, but nothing says that you can make permanent the mythic effect.
Note what Casting Mythic sys:
If you know the mythic version of a spell, any time you cast the spell, you may expend one use of mythic power to convert the spell into its mythic version as you cast it.You convert the spell to its mythic version. Strictly RAW it isn't the original spell anymore, it is a different version to which the original spell was converted.
RAI?
Mythic spells can’t be crafted into magic items unless the item is an artifact (for example, you can’t brew a potion of mythic cure light wounds).shows that mythic spells are intended to be available unless you spend uses of mythic powers or you have something very special.
The flip side of this is that any spell is a consumeable daily resource e.g magic fang is a 1st level spell and you only have so many of them available per day. Furthermore things like teleport circle have an actual cost associated with their casting e.g. 1,000 GP worth of amber dust. So your argument about carrying over mythic power applies just as well or badly to carrying over a spell like tongues. You make it permanent on a quiet day so you don't need to memorize language spells when adventuring.
As for whether a mythic spell is the same or different to me the flavour text seems a big hint to RAI . . .
You have learned how to unlock the power of your spells, combining them with your mythic power.
The intent is not that its a new/different spell its the same non-mythic spell infused with mythic power in the same way you supply a material component or focus when casting. Now I can see arguments both ways i.e. mythic power is consumed and the spell defaults to its base version as permaanency doesn't affect the mythic power or as long as the spells sustained the mythic power remains a part of it as you don't need to keep supplying material components to permanent spells but you do need to supply them when casting a new one.
For me the later seems the more RAI you cast a spell supplying the materials ls V,S.M,F,MP (mythic power) and then you use a second spell to sustain that first one indefinately.
Admitedly this is based on flavour text but this part of my post is regarding apparent RAI not RAW.
RAW to be determined is reliant on if you think mythic magic fang is a new spell or magic fang with an added component. If its a new spell then yes its not on the list and is up to GM allowance, if its the same spell with a new component then RAW is its allowed to be permanent.
As for mythic spells in magic items you have the counter point from mythic adventures page 140.
Just as their non-mythic counterparts, mythic characters use magic to aid them in their daring quests, but they can utilize some magic items in more powerful ways. In addition, mythic characters encounter artifacts somewhat more often, as such legendary items are often intertwined in their sagas.
Now yes these are not "cure mythic light wounds" but they're also not artifacts for example the bow of the hunter . . .
Price 38,000 gp; Slot none; CL 15th; Weight 5 lbs.; Aura strong transmutation
This golden +1 endless ammunition distance composite longbow (+6 Str) produces a golden arrow whenever it’s drawn.
By expending one use of mythic power, the bow’s wielder can make a single attack and compare the result against every enemy within 60 feet of her. The wielder rolls damage only 143 Mythic Magic Items 5 once, and applies it to all foes hit by the attack. If the attack is a critical threat, the wielder chooses only one enemy hit and attempts to confirm the critical against that enemy.
Also from mythic adventures page 70.
Mythic Crafter
You can craft mythic magic items.
Prerequisites: Any item creation feat.
Benefit: You can create any mythic magic item for which you have the appropriate item creation feat. In addition, you gain a +5 bonus on skill checks when creating nonmythic magic items.
So that and the quote about mythic spells not being used in items either contradict each other or its intended more in a "normal item and mythic item contrast."
There is no cure mythic light wounds but if you have Brew Potion, Mythic Crafter, know mythic cure light wounds and can cast cure light wounds per the RAW from mythic adventures you should be able to craft Mythic Cure Light Wounds potions. Cure light wounds heals, mythic cure light wounds heals better, brew potion lets you make potions with any 3rd level spell and mythic crafter lets you make mythic items.
So to me RAW and RAI is that mythic spells are useable in items IF you have the right training/feat to do so. However if you know everything except Mythic Crafter then you CAN'T just infuse mythic cure light wounds instead of cure light wounds because the techniques are different perhaps because you need to infuse mythic power? They are also able to be made permanent as RAW is that they're not a new spell but a spell you've learnt to mix mythic power with as a new component and thus can be made permanent.
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A mythic version of a spell isn't the same spell, it is a mythic version of that spell, and Permanency cares about the different versions of a spell.
Tongues can target you or other people but can be made permanent with permanency only on the caster.
Same for Darkvision.
Invisibility can be cast on persons or objects but can be made permanent only on objects.
Mythic magic items are artifacts, so there is no contradiction in those rules.
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A mythic version of a spell isn't the same spell, it is a mythic version of that spell, and Permanency cares about the different versions of a spell.
Tongues can target you or other people but can be made permanent with permanency only on the caster.
Same for Darkvision.
Invisibility can be cast on persons or objects but can be made permanent only on objects.Mythic magic items are artifacts, so there is no contradiction in those rules.
Depends on how you view it as I said for me it counts as the same spell because you add mythic power to make it mythic in the same way you add a material component to cast a normal spell. If you have mythic power you can cast a more powerful version yes but its still the same spell modified to be stronger. That is you are casting Mythic Tongues not Toms ten ton tongue twister. RAI it say's you "unlock the spells power" not "You change the spell". That is it is still the same spell RAI. RAW mythic and permanency have had no specific rules made.
Mythic items are not artifacts they are mythic items. An artifact is something that is either unique or largely impossible to duplicate and has a specific means of destroying it. The bow I posted above is a MYTHIC weapon. It has mythic power, mythic rules and can be made or destroyed just like any other object. The silver maiden is a MYTHIC ARTIFACT it has mythic power, mythic rules but can't be made by players and has a specific means of destroying it. You have the following categories mundane item, magic item, mythic item, lesser artfiact, major artifact, mythic artifact, legendary item (the last being a bit off to the side). Yes the power levels between them can vary quite a lot but just being mythic does not make an item an artifact. Here are the pathfinder artifact definations . . .
Minor (Lesser) Artifacts
Minor (or Lesser) artifacts are not necessarily unique items. Even so, they are magic items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means but still will likely have a great impact on the adventurers and societies through whose hands they pass. Minor artifacts are typically distinguished as artifact-level treasures of which multiple copies exist. This doesn’t mean minor artifacts actually prove significantly more common or less dangerous than major artifacts, though, or that GMs shouldn’t consider the same issues when choosing to add such potent magic items to their game.
Major (Legendary) Artifacts
Major (or Legendary) artifacts are unique items—only one of each such item exists. These are the most potent of magic items, capable of altering the balance of a campaign. Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction.
Again there are a large slew of mythic magic items and they don't fall into EITHER of these categories. With mythic crafter you can make them yourself so they are not minor artifacts since they can be created. Similarly they are not unique as many of them have multiple ones in existence and a player with the feats can make as many as they like so they are not major artifacts. That is assuming a major artifact doesn't have the same rule as minor ones of no longer being createable.
Many mythic items are artifacts yes but not all you have bow of the hunter, brutal axe, spiritwalk armour, stalwart breastplate, seven league boots, ambrosia, lyre of storms and more. You might be able to make an argument that mythic crafting is not "common mortal means" for lesser artifacts except that as said there are mythic artifacts. These are distinct and seperate from mythic items and mythic crafter allows you to make mythic items not artifacts. That is if you have craft staff and mythic crafter you still can't make a staff of the magi (lesser artifact) or a staff of eldritch sovereignity (mythic artifact). Mythic items are not automatically equal to artifacts.