Hello,
I'm currently trying to come up with a viable White Haired Witch build.
I'm just stuck with one question, in the WHW description size is pretty much ignored, but normally creatures can only constrict creatures smaller than themselves. Would this apply to the WHW, pretty much making her useless?
I would also gladly take any advice concerning a WHW build (aimed towards PFS), I was thinking of going monk with feral combat training and perhaps eldritch knight and I don't know how many levels of WHW to take (assuming I won't go higher than level 12 or so)
Thanks in advance for your help,
Octave
Hexcrafter guide Look at "the defiler"
As to the grappling size... I'm not sure. Enlarge person yourself?
Where does it say that constrict is normally limited to things smaller than your size?
I'm actually hoping that it is because I have a player that is using a WHW build that is literally wrecking things, but this could make a big difference if this is correct.
Are you auditing the CMB of the witch and the CMD of their defenses properly?Where does it say that constrict is normally limited to things smaller than your size?
I'm actually hoping that it is because I have a player that is using a WHW build that is literally wrecking things, but this could make a big difference if this is correct.
I am unsure. Are there specfic things I should be looking at, or that I might be over looking?
I should add they took 3 levels in WHW to get constrict and then multiclassed into monk with FCT for their hair.
Another cool option is to take a level of warpriest. You get weapon focus hair for free, it bumps your damage to 1d6 with your hair, and if you take the community blessing and use it on your familiar that +4 aid another every turn.
I have looked at the hexcrafter's guide but it's far from being a reference especially since the defiler build is very shady in my opinion.
I have seen some people suggesting to take Final Embrace but there'a nothing in the WHW description that would point to it being size restrictive.
By the way Korthis I like the monk dip better, it gives me flurry of blows, 1d6 dmg with my hair if I take Feral Combat Training as well as WIS to AC and combat reflexes for free.
The thing is I have no idea how many levels in witch / monk I should take or for example if I should try to go Eldritch Knight or something.
Thanks for your answers anyways ;)
I will bump that since I have still not received an answer and am currently creating a PFS character, who could potentially be useless if there is a size limit.
Are you auditing the CMB of the witch and the CMD of their defenses properly?Where does it say that constrict is normally limited to things smaller than your size?
I'm actually hoping that it is because I have a player that is using a WHW build that is literally wrecking things, but this could make a big difference if this is correct.
I am unsure. Are there specfic things I should be looking at, or that I might be over looking?
I should add they took 3 levels in WHW to get constrict and then multiclassed into monk with FCT for their hair.
I'm imagining a few potential problems that could be the cause of the problem. Unfortunately, the rules for white haired witch are a bit unclear. In this thread, James Jacobs describes the hair as functioning like the monster ability grab. Looking at the grab rule, the WHW ability appears to function like the "hold" part of the ability, but without the -20 to CMB.
I see some important implications to this:
1) Successfully grappling with the hair ties up that attack from doing anything other than grapple checks while that part of its body is holding the enemy.
2) The hold part of grab only allows checks for damage (and constrict). You can't use it to pin, tie up, or move.
3) If the WHW ability is indeed just like the grab monster ability, the Witch gets +4 bonus to start and maintain a grapple.
I personally think 3 is a bit shaky because having an ability that functions like grab wouldn't necessarily mean it has grab.
Going back to the WHW/monk, I imagine they are taking the combo to flurry with the hair. Ignoring the things stated above, you could flurry to grab 3 times in a single turn and pin the opponent. As seen here, flurry doesn't provide nearly that much benefit because once the hair successfully grabs it can no longer take part in a flurry.
At least that's my interpretation of the rules.
Faskill: There is no size restriction on constrict. The size restriction is on grab and is your size or smaller. There is some confusion on this because Bestiary 1 and 2 don't agree on this. There is this FAQ to clear it up though.
|
Grab: Limited to your size or smaller.
Constrict is problematical in that in the monster ability write up no size limit is stated. However, the Final Embrace says, "Normal: You can grab and constrict creatures one size smaller than you." (which is not stated in the write up)
Regardless, the reason people suggest Final Embrace to you is that using WHW's constrict ability is a swift action (1/rd) whereas the FE ability is a free with every successful grapple check in a round. This comes into play when you have multiple attacks: you attack/grapple/constrict/release the grapple (free action) and repeat with each remaining attack.
The other thing to be aware of is that if you are a creature with reach and you successfully grapple a creature, you must move it adjacent to you. This can be dangerous if you're not built for face-to-face combat.
|
Bruno just ask in the "Ask Mark Seiftner Anything Thread" about Constrict. He agreed that there is no size limit.
However, apparently Grab was updated (again), to be that the target must be one size smaller in the hard copy of Bestiary 4. Bruno no have B4 yet, so I cannot confirm that, but if so, we'll need an update (Bestiary 4) to the update (Bestiary 2) about the Grab ability.
I can confirm in the digital copy of Bestiary 4 that I have that Grab is stated to be one size or smaller.
Sammy T, has there been appropriate addressing of this by developers since it conflicts previous statements in Bestiary 2?
The only blocking point for the WHW is constrict but since it has no size limit apparently it should work out. The WHW doesn't have grab per se so I don't think a GM could enforce a size limit on her free grapple check.
The thing that disturbs me a bit is that the final embrace feat says you can only constrict creatures your size or smaller (without the feat), is that a mistake in the feat description?
The only blocking point for the WHW is constrict but since it has no size limit apparently it should work out. The WHW doesn't have grab per se so I don't think a GM could enforce a size limit on her free grapple check.
The thing that disturbs me a bit is that the final embrace feat says you can only constrict creatures your size or smaller (without the feat), is that a mistake in the feat description?
Yes. The FAQ I posted the link to above is the final word on this. As long as the FAQ isn't changed then grab works the way it says:
Grab: The grab rules for the Bestiary say the ability only works on creatures smaller than the monster, but the grab rules for Bestiary 2 say the ability works on creatures of up to the monster's own size. Which is correct?
Bestiary 2 is the new, updated version: grab works on creatures up to the size of the monster with the grab ability. The next time we do a reprint of the original Bestiary, we'll update all references to grab and similar abilities to reflect this change.
As for Bestiary 4, somebody must have overlooked it and copy/pasted from the first Bestiary. Both the second and third Bestiary agree with this FAQ.
When you say yes you mean that this is a mistake in the feat?
I don't much care about grab to be honest because the white haired witch already has a build in free grapple check. My question was more turned towards the size limit of constrict.
Another question that's popped into my mind is what happens if I'm grappling a target in the end of my round, and another target comes into AOO range? (I have 10 foot reach) Would I be able to stop grappling my first target and make the Aoo on the second one or would I be stuck with grappling my primary target because apparently releasing a grapple is a free action?
I have looked at the question you asked the designer Bruno and it seems to clear things up, thanks a lot !
Here is my interpretation :
- Without final embrace I can make a grapple check as a free action and constrict as a swift on creatures of ANY size.
- With final embrace I can still do that if I choose not to use the feat. However I can also use the grab ability on a creature my size or smaller (giving me a +4 to grapple check) and constrict creatures as a free action (do those creatures have to be my size or smaller? this still stays unclear).
Thanks a lot for your help I hope I will be able to clear things up before my game ! Playing GM credit characters for the first time is such a hassle ! :)
Edit : One another question : If I were to make a trip attack could I trigger Grab / the witch grapple check on it?
When you say yes you mean that this is a mistake in the feat?
I don't much care about grab to be honest because the white haired witch already has a build in free grapple check. My question was more turned towards the size limit of constrict.Another question that's popped into my mind is what happens if I'm grappling a target in the end of my round, and another target comes into AOO range? (I have 10 foot reach) Would I be able to stop grappling my first target and make the Aoo on the second one or would I be stuck with grappling my primary target because apparently releasing a grapple is a free action?
I have looked at the question you asked the designer Bruno and it seems to clear things up, thanks a lot !
Here is my interpretation :
- Without final embrace I can make a grapple check as a free action and constrict as a swift on creatures of ANY size.
- With final embrace I can still do that if I choose not to use the feat. However I can also use the grab ability on a creature my size or smaller (giving me a +4 to grapple check) and constrict creatures as a free action (do those creatures have to be my size or smaller? this still stays unclear).
Thanks a lot for your help I hope I will be able to clear things up before my game ! Playing GM credit characters for the first time is such a hassle ! :)
Edit : One another question : If I were to make a trip attack could I trigger Grab / the witch grapple check on it?
I am almost positive that the constrict thing is a mistake. IMHO, the universal monster rules trump a note on a feat. Further adding to all of it is the grab confusion.
As for your AoO question, a free action can only be done during your turn, so no, you can't release and AoO then (at least, not with the hair).
I don't know what all of the swift action talk is about. My PDF states the rule like this, all free actions. Note that it is different than PFSRD. Maybe they changed it and didn't tell anyone?
White Hair (Su): At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains
the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as
a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair
deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the
witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the
hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe
with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack
of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of
her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver
check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this
way, she does not gain the grappled condition.
At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a whitehaired
witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of
30 feet at 20th level.
The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate
creature. In addition, a white-haired witch further improves
her ability to control her hair as she progresses in level,
gaining the following abilities.
Constrict (Ex): At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s
hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin
constricting her victim as a free action, dealing damage
equal to that of its attack.
Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired witch who
successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a
combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a free action.
Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who
successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a
combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer
to her as a free action.
Strangle (Ex): At 8th level, when the white-haired witch’s
hair is grappling with an opponent, that creature is
considered strangled, and cannot speak or cast spells with
verbal components.
This ability replaces hex.
As for getting and using Final Embrace, keep in mind if you used the feat (as a normal grab attack with hair), you'd have to do it like anyone else. It looks like you definitely would get the grappled condition and would probably have to use strength for CMB.
The white haired witch has been errataed so that all the actions are now swift actions instead of free actions... I don't know what the developers had against this archetype that was already very weak to begin with.
That's why final embrace could be useful.
You're right on the grab thing though about getting the grappled condition (I will use the prehensile hair hex so strength for CMB isn't a problem). Maybe I can use it on my first attack and then release and make it so that I use my regular witch grapple on the second attack.
It still looks like Final Embrace is useful though if it can allow me to constrict as free action, but the size requirement still puzzles me.. I mean if I were to use the feat wouldn't I be hampered by the size restriction that is written in the feat, even though it's clearly a mistake?
Please keep in mind that this is supposed to be a PFS character so the rules around the character are supposed to be airtight...
First and foremost, I'm just gonna go ahead and profusely thank anyone that's been contributing to this thread !
I'll make a post writing in an orderly fashion the questions I'm still asking myself for clarity's sake.
1) Can I trigger the grab / WHW grapple check on a trip attack?
2) When i'm grappling with the WHW, I'm not grappled, does that mean I can make Aoos? If not, why?
3) When grappling and being not grappled, what happens if my foe tries to reverse the grapple?
Since I'm not grappled does it just break it or can I become grappled myself? In the last case could I use my Intelligence instead of my Strength when determining my CMD against an attempt to reverse the grapple?
4) Does Final Embrace allow me to constrict as a free action? Is the wording of the feat enough to uphold a size limit to what I can constrict?
Thank you in advance !
First and foremost, I'm just gonna go ahead and profusely thank anyone that's been contributing to this thread !
I'll make a post writing in an orderly fashion the questions I'm still asking myself for clarity's sake.
1) Can I trigger the grab / WHW grapple check on a trip attack?
2) When i'm grappling with the WHW, I'm not grappled, does that mean I can make Aoos? If not, why?
3) When grappling and being not grappled, what happens if my foe tries to reverse the grapple?
Since I'm not grappled does it just break it or can I become grappled myself? In the last case could I use my Intelligence instead of my Strength when determining my CMD against an attempt to reverse the grapple?4) Does Final Embrace allow me to constrict as a free action? Is the wording of the feat enough to uphold a size limit to what I can constrict?
Thank you in advance !
1) It depends how you interpret "the hair strikes a foe". Note that grab states "hits with the indicated attack". Hitting is pretty well defined in the book, while "striking" is not. Typically, combat maneuvers are "successful" or not. If you're looking for airtight, then no, this doesn't work. I don't believe the RAI is supposed to have this work either, but that's my interpretation.
2) You can make an AoO, you just can't with your hair because its in use.
3) My interpretation is that both people have to have the grappled condition for a reverse to happen. This is pretty murky rules-wise. If you play in PFS, it's going to boil down to the GM.
4) Final Embrace gives you the normal grab ability all of the time, there is no need to activate it with an action. The wording thing is going to depend on the GM in PFS.
I know 3 and 4 are unsatisfying answers, but that is an unfortunate side effect of playing something like the WHW. Basic grappling has so many things that aren't defined in the CRB, but when you add in Bestiary abilities and other special stuff things get really confusing. When I first saw the new hunter class the first thing I thought of was doing tag-team grapplers using the Brutal Grappler feat. As of right now, I've shelved the idea though because so many things were undefined that there was no way to plan properly when my whole strategy was up to the GM's whim. Unfortunately, that's the price we have to pay to play with a lot of the more exotic rules.