Goblin Squad Member
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I use stealth to sneak up to resource nodes that if I didn't sneak the mobs near it would see me and attack.
Xeen, Stealth only reduces the distance they can see you from, you can't get up next to them, but you can get closer then if you weren't sneaking.
Thats fine for approaching the node, however, the act of harvesting from a node should not be something that can be accomplished without immediately breaking stealth (unless its picking berries). Swinging an axe/pickaxe at a Tree/Ore deposit is not quiet, and should immediately bring any mobs within earshot to investigate the noise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the subject of listing skills and the rerequisires, triggers and effects of the skills, I would like all of that information to be charted out and organized in an easily accessible format.
Skill
Pre Rq
Trigger / Effect
Follow Up Skill that uses trigger
This is essentially a combo system that pairs or links (strings) skills together to create graster than individual skill effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a person with Max Stealth skill should be able to come quit close to a player with zero perception skill. And much closer even to an NPC. I understand the reasoning that "if this is true, then getting max Perception becomes a requirement and not a choice" but I am not sure if that is always true. There must be ways to offset such advantages in other ways then nerf the actual skill into uselesness. Or at least into something else, that does not serve its original purpose (which is a Stealth attack).
I am sure gatherers will see use for stealth if that means it is harder to detect them from a distance, but a Rogue would expect a little more from Stealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the subject of listing skills and the rerequisires, triggers and effects of the skills, I would like all of that information to be charted out and organized in an easily accessible format.
Skill
Pre Rq
Trigger / Effect
Follow Up Skill that uses triggerThis is essentially a combo system that pairs or links (strings) skills together to create graster than individual skill effects.
Something like this would be very helpful. Right now it's tough to create a solid build for a character. We can slot and hover over Feat X to learn that it will inflict Effect Y if the target has Condition Z, but it's hard to find out which feats apply Condition Z without slotting them all one at a time. And that only works for active feats. For passive feats, looking them up in a table that someone generously compiled from the developers' notes is often the only way to know what they do.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: In d20 -> Pathfinder, there is no backstabbing.
Rogues get their Sneak Attack bonuses by attacking targets that are vulnerable. The primary method of making them vulnerable is to flank them, or to inflict a condition on them that makes them vulnerable.
We are staying true to this game mechanic. The objective of a Rogue is not to approach psuedo-invisibly and deliver a crippling alpha strike against an unaware opponent. The typical objective of a Rogue is to engage with a partner, get the target flanked, and make a series of attacks with Sneak Attack damage. The partner's objective is to keep the target in a condition where the Rogue's Sneak Attack will be applied.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get that Ryan, but I think I know where they are thinking of the backstab.
In the D20/pathfinder rules, if your hidden from the enemy, the enemy is Dex_Denied State to your Surprise attack provided they don't spot you.
It's the same Dex_Denied State state as when flanking with a partner.
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
......
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: In d20 -> Pathfinder, there is no backstabbing.
Rogues get their Sneak Attack bonuses by attacking targets that are vulnerable. The primary method of making them vulnerable is to flank them, or to inflict a condition on them that makes them vulnerable.
We are staying true to this game mechanic. The objective of a Rogue is not to approach psuedo-invisibly and deliver a crippling alpha strike against an unaware opponent. The typical objective of a Rogue is to engage with a partner, get the target flanked, and make a series of attacks with Sneak Attack damage. The partner's objective is to keep the target in a condition where the Rogue's Sneak Attack will be applied.
Will there be some way to know what "state" the target is in?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Bluddwolf - yes that's already in the game although its far from useable (my opinion). The decorations on the combat status UI element show you various kinds of information about the conditions currently affecting the target. Ideally they'll become easier to interpret.
Also, in the next build, when you have an ability that takes advantage of a condition on the target, it gets a green background in the action bar making it easier to figure out when it's the right time to fire off that ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We've had this debate before. I'm not going to rehash it.
I think you did the right call in saying NO the the Backstab.
but folks who want it will point to those parts.I don't think it has sunk into them yet, that this game is a Social game that may require some Teamwork to get things done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf - yes that's already in the game although its far from useable (my opinion). The decorations on the combat status UI element show you various kinds of information about the conditions currently affecting the target. Ideally they'll become easier to interpret.
Also, in the next build, when you have an ability that takes advantage of a condition on the target, it gets a green background in the action bar making it easier to figure out when it's the right time to fire off that ability.
This honestly made me say, "Holy Crap!"
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Bluddwolf - I think I actually did say that. Loud enough that the designers heard me and came over to see what I was reacting to.
Apparently, this was a feature that was working, and broke at some point, and it was a pretty easy fix. I had circulated an internal memo about some UI changes I'd like to see, and Stephen was confused because one of them (this, basically) was already in the game - but then he checked and noticed it wasn't working anymore. A little behind-the-scenes mojo and BOOM, feature re-enabled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: In d20 -> Pathfinder, there is no backstabbing.
Rogues get their Sneak Attack bonuses by attacking targets that are vulnerable. The primary method of making them vulnerable is to flank them, or to inflict a condition on them that makes them vulnerable.
We are staying true to this game mechanic. The objective of a Rogue is not to approach psuedo-invisibly and deliver a crippling alpha strike against an unaware opponent. The typical objective of a Rogue is to engage with a partner, get the target flanked, and make a series of attacks with Sneak Attack damage. The partner's objective is to keep the target in a condition where the Rogue's Sneak Attack will be applied.
That's funny, my Pathfinder rogues can deliver massive alpha strikes from stealth, and frequently do so from behind. Though I also take advantage of sleeping targets or those who have been held,paralyzed, or poisoned into immobility. I sure hope PFO mechanics will allow for the Coup De Grace attacks on foes who have been rendered helpless.
This has been the objective of every rogue tabletop character I have ever played and often I skip pseudo invisibility (though Pathfinder does offer many such abilities) and go straight for actual invisibility either by taking spell caster levels, drinking potions, or using wondrous items which grant it.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: In d20 -> Pathfinder, there is no backstabbing.
Rogues get their Sneak Attack bonuses by attacking targets that are vulnerable. The primary method of making them vulnerable is to flank them, or to inflict a condition on them that makes them vulnerable.
We are staying true to this game mechanic. The objective of a Rogue is not to approach psuedo-invisibly and deliver a crippling alpha strike against an unaware opponent. The typical objective of a Rogue is to engage with a partner, get the target flanked, and make a series of attacks with Sneak Attack damage. The partner's objective is to keep the target in a condition where the Rogue's Sneak Attack will be applied.
Having been out of the D20 game involuntarily for several years now, I was unaware that this was the way the Sneak Attack mechanic now worked. Consider me enlightened. :)
You could have just as easily run by them, and running does not cost xp.
Having tried that, and having been stunned, then immobilized by the Purple and Orange leveled mobs to my death, I'd argue that Stealth saved me an intervention from Pharasma.
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OVERALL I honestly did not enjoy my experience and in my opinion September for EE (unless these next 2 Alphas are God incarnate) seems very premature. I just don't see the current features providing an interesting gaming experience. I'm a tough critic, sorry.
Honestly, this was my impression as well. I don't want to be a complete downer, but I also don't think it's helpful to rate the readiness (and viability) of the game based on the promise of future content. When the game launches, the state of the product at that point will be what determines gameplay and how well the game gets and retains subscribers.
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In order to hopefully prevent prejudicial judgement of my analysis I'm going to preface my statements by saying that I believe that the concept of Pathfinder Online is an extremely insightful and novel idea to finally make a community-based sandbox instead of the standard tribal "clanbox" that most attempts at MMORPG sandboxes have so far devolved into. It's very similar to an idea that I had (and even spent many hours documenting) in order to address the lack of "community" beyond individual guilds that plagues most open-world territory-control sandbox MMORPGs and creates an entirely "tribal" environment. As such, I have extremely high hopes for PFO, not in terms of delivering a perfect experience, but just in terms of having a working game in which this settlement idea can first be tested to in a live game. I'm not expecting, or even hoping for the game to blow anyone away in terms of features or appearance, but, hopefully just to work well enough to see if this settlement system can create a community-based sandbox experience.
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Now, on to my experience in this weekend's Alpha... I know there's a lot coming in the next 2 patches, but here's my review of what's there now.
Note: Due to time spent broken and diagnosing a broken SSD, and then many more hours finalizing and buying components for 2 new computers that jumped in priority from "I should do this soon" to "I need to go ahead and get this done" when I lost the SSD, I only had about 3 hours of total time in game this weekend, so I understand that my comments are not fully qualified with as many hours of time in game as I'd have liked. However, I really did not find much to excite me about the game.
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* COMBAT GENERAL: The combat is very clunky. Animations don't line up to actions, so it's hard to know what's going on. If I was running while shooting (which seems odd for most of those long-timer ranged attacks) the animation usually wouldn't happen at all, even though the ability did actually fire. Clicking on the mobs doesn't work at a distance and doesn't always work up close, but tabbing works fine without any noticeable glitches.
* COMBAT CONFUSION: There are no icons for buffs or debuffs, so whenever I had something applied to myself or an enemy, an icon with a "?" showed up attached to the end of a bar and I had no idea what it meant. Also, the color-scheme for the bars is not intuitive. Stamina is blue, which is normally the color for mana, and power is yellow, which is normally the color for stamina. This is something that is going to confuse and irritate a lot of players and I would think that a lot of confusion about status can be eliminated by switching those 2 colors.
* RANGED: Overpowered kiting abilities made PvE completely without challenge. With a fighter right out of the character creator, with no points spent and only the equipment I started with, I was able to clear whole groups of mobs without any difficulty. (And yes, I usually play ranged characters and probably will here and I'm still saying that kiting is currently so overpowered as to be boring.) The fighter, who's wearing heavy armor, can run backwards as fast as he can run forwards. Since all of the ranged abilities can be activated while moving, I was able to fire into a group of mobs, run backwards while killing one, tab to the next and continue until they started to leash back to their static camp, during which time I'd be chasing and killing a second mob. By repeating this method I was able to repeatedly clear camps of 6-10 mobs with complete ease as a solo warrior in my first 15 minutes of play. As long as I watched for ranged mobs and dealt with them appropriately, I didn't have any issues killing camps of goblins, skeletons, bandits, etc. I understand we're more powerful right now than we're meant to be and starting with higher level equipment, but I thought this was to allow us to test fights with higher-level enemies, so I assume these weren't low-level monsters. (when I did let them get to melee on me, 4 of them killed me in 2 hits each, and if I let an archer shoot me, he'd kill me in about 6 hits.) I was able to do all of this without spending any of my EXP on feats and, since I could remain untouched when doing this, I wouldn't need any armor, just a decent bow. Even if my character was weaker, a group of 2-3 players with ranged attacks could still wipe large groups of mobs without any challenge.
* MELEE: Melee combat is a confusing exercise in futility. Most of my abilities fired many seconds after I clicked them and none of them seemed to have much effect. While I could kill these mobs in 3-4 hits with a bow, it seemed to take 10+ to kill them in melee. In the meantime, the skeletons would kill me in about 6-8 hits. I would often shoot the skeleton to start the combat, getting it to about 60% health, and then try to finish it in melee, finishing with about 10% of my health. I spent about 40k experience in mostly melee stats and a bunch of melee feats (couldn't find any new ranged ones) and melee got about 20% better. I went from 10+ hits to kill to only about 6-8, but still no where close to the damage I was doing with a bow.
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* LOOTING: I couldn't loot anything that I killed on any of the 3 days. I'm not sure if I was missing something, or if looting isn't currently enabled, but I couldn't click on any corpses. Did I need to wait until the enemies became graves? Or was my character auto-looting or something?
* DEATH: I did die a few times trying to fight in melee, or because I didn't realize I had a bleed on me when I finished combat. (I think it was a bleed because I kept losing HP even after everything was dead. I had some icon at the end of my health bar, but it was just a ? with no tool-tip.) I instantly re-spawned at a nearby shrine with no apparent penalty. I don't know if my gear was auto-threaded, but I didn't attempt to thread anything and dying never removed any of my gear. I didn't notice any durability damage, but I forgot to check closely. I didn't have any items though, so I don't know what is or isn't in game or working at this point in regards to this.
* PVE PURPOSE? If EXP is granted by time and not by killing monsters (which is a feature I really LIKE!) and the mobs don't have any loot and aren't a challenge, then what's the point of killing these things? Is it just to make sure they don't spread and take over the gathering areas? If the reasoning for clearing mobs is to make way for gathering and not for loot, that's fine, but I'd prefer if the combat was at least interesting and not so easily avoided with ranged kiting.
* GRAPHICAL SETTINGS & GLITCHES: The graphical settings appear to be in "groups" that have major changes between groups and only minor changes to shadows and such within a group. Between Fastest and Fantastic, the bottom 2 seem to make one group, the middle 3-4 the next, and the top 2 the third. Switching within a group was easy and fast, but switching between the groups took a few minutes (although I am on an older computer) and left all characters (player or NPC) either entirely dark gray (armor, face, etc), or textured all characters in a thin green & white vertical stripes. Logging out and back in didn't fix this, but quitting the game and reloading did. As it stands right now, it would be better if changing between major graphics groups didn't try to do anything and required quitting and reloading the game to take effect as attempting to switch in-game seems to take 3-4 minutes and require reloading anyway.
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* SUMMARY: I'm still very interested to see the major content being added in the next 2 patches, but as of right now, I don't see there being a minimum level of content to have a viable game. I'm very curious to know what others are doing with their time in Alpha as I see a lot of people saying that they're enjoying it, I would not view the current state of Alpha to be anywhere near a "Minimum Viable Product". As of right now I don't see there being enough content to keep players interested in maintaining a subscription. I haven't tried out gathering, but PvE lacked challenge and seemed to be materially pointless. I did not try gathering or crafting yet to see how that was, so maybe gathering and crafting are interesting, but there's not much of a market for goods when PvP isn't implemented and PvE seems pointless. Again, I'm interested to hear what others are doing for fun, but as Saiph the Fallen mentioned I think it would be a big mistake to launch EE at this current state and I don't think the next 2 patches are going to realistically correct this enough for the game to be ready. There are a lot of people who will have HUGE expectations for PFO since it carries the Pathfinder name. With the Pathfinder name, friends of mine from all walks of gaming are extremely interested in this game. For the last 6 months, just the mention of an MMO in the Pathfinder universe was enough to instantly excite them before I even discussed the planed features. While I understand that it's unreasonable for anyone to expect a newly-released MMORPG to provide a tabletop-like experience, I would not suggest they play it at this point though because I feel they would be hugely disappointed with the current state of the game. That disappointment could really tarnish PFOs name in the MMORPG market and hurt the game long-term. I'd rather see a beta accessible to everyone that bought into the EE and give the game another 3-6 months of development. The progress from Tech Demo to this in only a year is phenomenal and I'd hate to see that effort sullied by launching a few months before there's really enough content to sustain a large player-base in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OVERALL I honestly did not enjoy my experience and in my opinion September for EE (unless these next 2 Alphas are God incarnate) seems very premature. I just don't see the current features providing an interesting gaming experience. I'm a tough critic, sorry.Honestly, this was my impression as well. I don't want to be a complete downer, but I also don't think it's helpful to rate the readiness (and viability) of the game based on the promise of future content. When the game launches, the state of the product at that point will be what determines gameplay and how well the game gets and retains subscribers.
Not to detract from your insights and suggestions, several of which give great insight and feedback that I think the devs need to hear, but EE isn't 'Newly Released' and what constitutes MVP isn't really ours to determine. It is their project management decision and as they are an agile team they are reliant on milestones that I truly do not wish to tinker with.
On release, that is Open Enrollment, not Early Enrollment then they will be catering to the public rather than backers and the friends of backers. They are unlikely to really lose us in EE just because the product is not up to final expectations.
True, they might lose some of us if it begins to look like the product is slipping or that shoddy work is being done. But those latter conditions are made more likely, rather than less, if we mess around with their milestones.
Let's not start slamming them like Call of Duty forumites just yet with our demands. EE is coming much sooner than anyone expected, but the game is also much further along than at least I expected it to be, and Open Enrollment (a 'new release') isn't likely for at least another year.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth was useless! Those that say you used it to get by mobs, I think it was something else that got you by. Unstealthed with my shortbow, 25m every mob saw and turned to attack me. Maxed out stealth, stealthed and sneaking up from behind mobs, no LOS to me, at 25m they turned and attacked me. I tested this over 50 times. If you made it by mobs while stealthed, you just didn't get as close as you think.
Stealth vs PC's I didn't get to test. Spent most of my time testing vs mobs and trying to find a viable build for a rogue. I did some PvP with my short bow, worthless against Nihimon and his rotation and stun. The long bow did significantly better but doesn't promote rogue leveling.
Targeting was awful. Not knowing effects on mobs awful. Melee awful. reputation awful.
Damn, with all these awfuls... I loved it. Can't wait for things to be tweaked to work a little better.
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to Being: I understand what you're saying, but, as someone else said on the forums, while GW can define "MVP" to be whatever they want, it's really the players that determine what minimum viability is. As of right now, I don't think there's enough content to cause even those who've already bought in to EE at the $100 or $50 level to subscribe and stay subscribed. That opinion may not be shared by all, but that's my feeling at this point. Also, I don't think that GW has hit their sales target for EE subscriptions or they wouldn't be moving up the access dates and providing the $50 level. As we expand the audience, expectations will be different for those coming into the community now as opposed to those who've been watching development for a year.
As far as Early Enrollment vs. Open Enrollment, it's irrelevant what GW or this community calls it. By month 2, the game is open for anyone who buys in at the $50 level, which is a standard MMORPG price. Monthly subscription fees are being charged and progress will be preserved baring a major disaster (and if they do have to wipe due to a major disaster it will also be problematic to players who've been paying a subscription). At the point that EE opens up, it doesn't matter how many warnings are attached, the game will be judged on that content, and, as of right now, I don't feel that it's a working game with a minimal level of content to be interesting, but still needing completion. It feels like an incomplete work-in-progress.
I know these views may very-likely make me very unpopular on these forums, and I'm sorry if that happens. I'm not looking to upset the community, be a persistent pessimist, or desire the failure of PFO. I'm saying these things despite the very real possibility of being disliked for them because I so badly want this game to succeed and I think that saying these things is in the best interest of the success of this game. I really think that giving PFO an extra 3-6 months, with additional input from increasing the number of testers, will really help this game be ready for a strong launch and on a path to being a great game. I'd just rather it didn't "leave the oven" just a bit too early.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't address a lot of this, and won't try, but a couple of points I can shed some light on:
1) Encumbrance is temporarily not in effect, so some things like running in heavy armour are misleading at the moment
2) Consumables are not handled. Among other things, needing to carry enough arrows to use your archery will change a lot.
3) currently Looting is automatic. (won't be true always) if you check your inventory after each kill, you'll see new items appearing.
4) Currently threads, loss, and durability are not in play, so dying has no effect on equipment. Later, anything unthreaded will be 25% destroyed at death, 75% stays on the body. Threaded will lose 1% durability at death.
5) In addition to loot, PvE contributes to achievements, which are required to get higher level abilities.
[some stuff]
Yes, I understand that a lot of these things will change, as I fully expect them to. I'm pointing these out because I feel these are things that need to be addressed for the game to be ready for EE.
Another thing that I noticed that bugged me a bit was the mini-map. I could see all NPCs and players, friendly or enemy. Seeing enemies on the mini-map is something that I'm REALLY not used to seeing, even in games like WoW. This makes exploration extremely boring, perception useless, and will severely impact PvP if we continue to know the position of everything around us, friendly or enemy, with no "fog of war" or line-of-sight requirements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know these views may very-likely make me very unpopular on these forums, and I'm sorry if that happens.
I don't think you run any such risk. We're fairly easy going so long as you are. Your views are your views and that is as it should be. But I disagree, and I am also allowed to disagree, that we won't stick while progress is clearly being made, and I also very much disagree with your estimation that the players get to determine the content and scheduling of development milestones. I suspect that the development team will rightly be in charge of that.
You're free to disagree. We all are. However, I believe that your opinions as someone who'd closely followed the game for 1+ years are significantly different that someone who comes in at the start of (or one month into) EE and doesn't have that same investment. While the active forum community of a few hundred might stick with it while paying a sub at this state, I do not believe that the few thousand players that GW wants to attract and retain during the EE period will do the same.
I agree that GW sets the schedule, content, and development milestones, but the players each individually determine the viability of the game. If enough feel the content is sufficient, they'll stay. If they feel that the content isn't sufficient, they won't stay and the viability of the game may be damaged by a poor impression of the larger gaming community and a very low game population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EE..... yeah I agree a lot needs to be fixed before then. I'd rather it stay in alpha until combat is more balanced, tool tips in and various other items fixed. If people are paying to get in and are unhappy about, likely they wont stay. If they have to wait a little longer but are satisfied, then you haven't lost much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth vs PC's I didn't get to test. Spent most of my time testing vs mobs and trying to find a viable build for a rogue. I did some PvP with my short bow, worthless against Nihimon and his rotation and stun. The long bow did significantly better but doesn't promote rogue leveling.
I think the minimap should agree with our perceptions. If a PC is stealthed we might at most get an unreliable and unstable, maybe faded icon on the minimap until they are actually within the range that we are supposed to be able to perceive them in compliance with our perception training relative to their stealth skill. And looking out on the world we shouldn't reliably see them until they are within range. At least while they are a shadow of their former selves they will not be as noticeable, but still even that shouldn't be seen from afar.
And when they get close I think they should become fully visible and selectable to us, whether they are still stealthy or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EE..... yeah I agree a lot needs to be fixed before then. I'd rather it stay in alpha until combat is more balanced, tool tips in and various other items fixed. If people are paying to get in and are unhappy about, likely they wont stay. If they have to wait a little longer but are satisfied, then you haven't lost much.
I agree... The current minimum viable product is a'bit too minimum for me.
WoW handled this reasonably well (as much as I dislike "auto-magical" stealth). When they got close, you could select them, but only manually, without being able to tab-target them until they were "de-stealthed".
Still I don't think any target, friendly or enemy, stealth or unstealthed, should be on the mini-map unless we can SEE them (line of sight), and, for stealthed characters, have enough perception to see through the stealth.
It would be nice if perception checks took cover (trees, bushes, other players) into consideration, making it easier to stealth right to a target behind cover and nearly impossible to do so in an open field, where hiding would be nearly impossible, unless you remained behind the character and out of Line-of-Sight, but I doubt this is something that would be implemented soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Generally solo killing the beginner mobs close to starter town was indeed boring in "super" mode but that is true of any game.
Also when I first started the autoloot and lack of downside to death was confusing. As was the point in the "achievements" from killing monsters.
The escalations were more interesting, challenging and larger mobs required group play.
I think most people found that first few hours of play confusing and frustrating. It gets better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth vs PC's I didn't get to test. Spent most of my time testing vs mobs and trying to find a viable build for a rogue. I did some PvP with my short bow, worthless against Nihimon and his rotation and stun. The long bow did significantly better but doesn't promote rogue leveling.I think the minimap should agree with our perceptions. If a PC is stealthed we might at most get an unreliable and unstable, maybe faded icon on the minimap until they are actually within the range that we are supposed to be able to perceive them in compliance with our perception training relative to their stealth skill. And looking out on the world we shouldn't reliably see them until they are within range. At least while they are a shadow of their former selves they will not be as noticeable, but still even that shouldn't be seen from afar.
And when they get close I think they should become fully visible and selectable to us, whether they are still stealthy or not.
I concur. I think LOS and cover should also apply to this. World of Tanks has some system if your in the bushes it provides a bonus to stealth and not being spotted.
to Edam Neadenil: I hope that's true. I see 2 trouble-points in this:
1) that initial impression is very important
2) the kiting tactic that I was using would be easy for a group of 3-4 to implement even if I was a weaker character. The problem wasn't character power (remember, I did this right out of character creation with none of my exp spent and only the starting feats), but the fact that I could run backwards at the same speed as a mob running forward, while firing abilities! It's been suggested that this won't be possible once encumbrance has been implemented, but I counter with the fact that I could just wear light armor, or no armor. The issue is being able to run backwards at the same speed as forward and being able to used ranged abilities while running. I think Half-draw (I think that's the feat's name) should be able to be used while running, but the longer-timer abilities should require a player to stop or at least slow down to use.
I don't see a reason that this tactic wouldn't be just as successful in an escalation provided you have room to back up far enough. Kill 1 target by the time they leash back to camp and all is good. Even if you fail to kill it by the time they leash, you can still chase it the whole way back still firing!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I concur. I think LOS and cover should also apply to this. World of Tanks has some system if your in the bushes it provides a bonus to stealth and not being spotted.Stealth vs PC's I didn't get to test. Spent most of my time testing vs mobs and trying to find a viable build for a rogue. I did some PvP with my short bow, worthless against Nihimon and his rotation and stun. The long bow did significantly better but doesn't promote rogue leveling.I think the minimap should agree with our perceptions. If a PC is stealthed we might at most get an unreliable and unstable, maybe faded icon on the minimap until they are actually within the range that we are supposed to be able to perceive them in compliance with our perception training relative to their stealth skill. And looking out on the world we shouldn't reliably see them until they are within range. At least while they are a shadow of their former selves they will not be as noticeable, but still even that shouldn't be seen from afar.
And when they get close I think they should become fully visible and selectable to us, whether they are still stealthy or not.
Well even without stealth the mini-map is an issue. You can stand under a bridge for example and be totally hidden from view but still show up on the minimap.
Well even without stealth the mini-map is an issue. You can stand under a bridge for example and be totally hidden from view but still show up on the minimap.I concur. I think LOS and cover should also apply to this. World of Tanks has some system if your in the bushes it provides a bonus to stealth and not being spotted.Stealth vs PC's I didn't get to test. Spent most of my time testing vs mobs and trying to find a viable build for a rogue. I did some PvP with my short bow, worthless against Nihimon and his rotation and stun. The long bow did significantly better but doesn't promote rogue leveling.I think the minimap should agree with our perceptions. If a PC is stealthed we might at most get an unreliable and unstable, maybe faded icon on the minimap until they are actually within the range that we are supposed to be able to perceive them in compliance with our perception training relative to their stealth skill. And looking out on the world we shouldn't reliably see them until they are within range. At least while they are a shadow of their former selves they will not be as noticeable, but still even that shouldn't be seen from afar.
And when they get close I think they should become fully visible and selectable to us, whether they are still stealthy or not.
Agree completely. This seemed really odd to me, especially since the last "themepark" I played was Warhammer (and 3 months of Rift that I don't really remember). This system will really impact a game with meaningful PvP, and probably not in a good way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"I think Half-draw (I think that's the feat's name) should be able to be used while running, but the longer-timer abilities should require a player to stop or at least slow down to use."
I don't know about anyone else, but Overdraw definately rooted my toon for a couple of seconds (each use).
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) the kiting tactic that I was using would be easy for a group of 3-4 to implement even if I was a weaker character. The problem wasn't character power (remember, I did this right out of character creation with none of my exp spent and only the starting feats), but the fact that I could run backwards at the same speed as a mob running forward, while firing abilities! It's been suggested that this won't be possible once encumbrance has been implemented, but I counter with the fact that I could just wear light armor, or no armor.
I never intended to say that encumbrance would counter that. Only that it will alter _some_ movement related issues. (Such as the fact that currently you can sprint endlessly, including running right through mobs quite handily)
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) the kiting tactic that I was using would be easy for a group of 3-4 to implement even if I was a weaker character. The problem wasn't character power (remember, I did this right out of character creation with none of my exp spent and only the starting feats), but the fact that I could run backwards at the same speed as a mob running forward, while firing abilities! It's been suggested that this won't be possible once encumbrance has been implemented, but I counter with the fact that I could just wear light armor, or no armor.I never intended to say that encumbrance would counter that. Only that it will alter _some_ movement related issues. (Such as the fact that currently you can sprint endlessly, including running right through some mobs quite handily)
I took the liberty of a small edit. Just a note from some unfortunate experiences due to overconfidence. ;)
@ Bringslite: None of the 3 starting ranged feats required me to slow down or stop when I tested it. I couldn't find any additional to buy, so maybe some do, but none of the 3 I tested did.
@ Scarlette: I really hope things WILL change. I'm pointing these out because I really do hope they'll change before EE, but I want to make sure that the issues are known as the game stands and that I think there's issues that need to be addressed before EE in order to have a working game that's feature-complete (which I think people will support), rather than simply an incomplete game (which will get a much different reaction).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have some thoughts on this...
Alphas almost always suck pretty bad. Things don't work right, and the game isn't ready for release. That is to be expected. From the comments, this Alpha seems to be no different.
When someone says that they hope things are fixed for EE, I think they might have some false expectations. Alpha is Alpha, EE is a paid Beta. Most games in Beta are pretty mediocre, if not bad. I would not expect things to live up to your expectations when EE goes live.
I know myself... I will play this game regardless of how mediocre it is at the beginning. I am patient enough to wait for the features I want. Sadly, many are not. My wife will likely grow bored of the game, if things are glitchy or confusing. Because of that, I am going to try to be an expert, so I can help her through any issues. That's great for her, but lots of people don't have someone to do that for them.
I think we need to manage our expectations of EE. We need to understand that paying a sub at this point is done with the hopes that the MVP will meet our expectations. Paying a sub and testing the game in EE is something you do on faith, kind of like the kickstarter itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wrote many things.
I can assure you that you are not an outcast, and many people share many if not all of your concerns. The Alpha forums are even more critical of the current state of the game. :)
I feel very confident that if the majority of Alpha and Early Enrollment players feel that the game is not ready to launch on September 15, 2014; that fact will be made loudly, persistently and vigorously known to the Goblin Works staff via many means...
In addition, Ryan (and crew) has made it very clear that they value the quality of the game as more important that a specific launch date.
In any case, we will soon find out what is going to happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It really all comes back to the fact that this is a "small start up Indie". This is not a AAA development project. This company does not expect a AAA startup crowd followed by a AAA decline.
It expects to build slowly, at a pace that it can handle, with "fully aware" (of conditions) customers.
I have some thoughts on this...
Alphas almost always suck pretty bad. Things don't work right, and the game isn't ready for release. That is to be expected. From the comments, this Alpha seems to be no different.
When someone says that they hope things are fixed for EE, I think they might have some false expectations. Alpha is Alpha, EE is a paid Beta. Most games in Beta are pretty mediocre, if not bad. I would not expect things to live up to your expectations when EE goes live.
I know myself... I will play this game regardless of how mediocre it is at the beginning. I am patient enough to wait for the features I want. Sadly, many are not. My wife will likely grow bored of the game, if things are glitchy or confusing. Because of that, I am going to try to be an expert, so I can help her through any issues. That's great for her, but lots of people don't have someone to do that for them.
I think we need to manage our expectations of EE. We need to understand that paying a sub at this point is done with the hopes that the MVP will meet our expectations. Paying a sub and testing the game in EE is something you do on faith, kind of like the kickstarter itself.
I agree that this is the goal, but I'm not certain how many players will share that viewpoint. I highlighted that portion of your statement above. I think it's easy for people to see a working, but feature incomplete game, and be willing to make that investment based on faith. That becomes harder when core features are broken or missing. The settlement and siege aspects can wait, but I think PvE, PvP, and crafting need to all be working and fun for the game to be ready. This was my impression of GWs goals as well. I don't think the current Alpha is at this point. I plan to continue to test (hopefully even more next time) the next 2 Alpha clients and I hope that many of these issues are addressed in those next 2 patches, making the game much closer to release, but I wanted to point out the things that I felt needed addressing to have the game ready to be playable, even if not all the features that set PFO apart from other games are implemented yet.
It really all comes back to the fact that this is a "small start up Indie". This is not a AAA development project. This company does not expect a AAA startup crowd followed by a AAA decline.
It expects to build slowly, at a pace that it can handle, with "fully aware" (of conditions) customers.
I'm hoping the next 2 patches change this, but I've been following the PFO blogs since I found out about it about a month after the Kickstarter ended, and I do not currently feel that the Alpha meets the expectations for MVP that I imagined from reading the blog posts. I agree with your assessment about how this is supposed to work, but I don't feel that the current state of Alpha met my minimal expectations based on feature completeness. I've played a lot of MMORPGs over the past 12 years and have been in a number of Alphas and Betas. Further, most of the games I've played in the last 3 years have been small, niche games with less funding than GW so I wasn't under any illusions of grand spectacle. I have a very good idea of what to expect from indie-developed games, but, from that same experience, I also have some feeling for what level things need to be at to retain and grow a niche community for an indie sandbox game.