A low level pot dealer doesn't need a gun if caught he risks only to waste between one and three hours in police station and, if really unlucky, to be confronted to a judge telling him not to do it again (even if already caught a dozen time). Police considers he's no one, drug dealers also consider he's no one, so he's risking nothing. Having a gun can only bring him troubles.Its not the cops he needs to worry about, its some other people like to point a gun at him and take his stuff. He's probably got more cash on him than you'll get from a supermarket and is far less likely to report it to the police.
I'm no expert, but I'd guess that (a) if he's an independent schlub, he's dealing to local college kids and doesn't need to worry too much anyway, and (b) if he's part of a larger network, when someone ripped him off he'd simply make a phone call up the food chain, and the ripoff guy would be 'disappeared'. So, yeah, in either case I wouldn't carry, if I were selling, and if I were running an organization I'd keep the enforcement team as separate people from the sales team.
I suspect that hd might be able to better address this, though.
While those are sound arguments for not carrying, many of them do anyway. How far that's logical and how much of it is a cultural/machismo is debatable, but the fact that the cops have to deal with is that there are a LOT of people walking around with pistols that aren't much worse than what they have. A shootout isn't a time when you want a fair fight.
While those are sound arguments for not carrying, many of them do anyway. How far that's logical and how much of it is a cultural/machismo is debatable...
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But that's all kind of veering off-topic. Overall, I'd rather invest $$$ into ameliorating poverty, which would in turn reduce drug use and street crime. If that means less U.S. overseas adventurism, resulting in less trickle-down military hardware, that's fine with me.
Police officers have been shot long before they were issued bullet proof vests. Are you saying that we shouldn't try to save their lives?We're talking a little more than bullet proof vests here.
Sniper rifles and MRAPs for protests? Even if there's been looting, what are those for other than terrifying the protesters?Of course, if the police are safer in bullet proof vests, they're even safer inside armored vehicles, right?
More generally, there are times when the natural reaction of "trying to save their lives", just escalates the conflict and actually puts their lives more at risk. While taking more apparent risk can calm things down and reduce the actual risk.
It's counter-intuitive, but often true.
I should have quoted Sissyl who seemed to be advocating not using protective vests.
As I said before having the equipment is NOT bad, the way it is sometimes used is. As I said a local city got one of the MRAPs. They got it to replace their old armored vehicle. I didn't know they had an armored vehicle.
But as for the personal gear that the police have? Without it a riot could easily overrun a police line, ending up with a lot of dead and injured officers.
BTW have you ever looked at the way other "free" countries deal with rioters and violence? What is going on in Ferguson is mild compared to that.
So, I'll tell you how cops proceed in Europe to arrest a high level drug dealer in Western Europe (I'm not a specialist but there was cases over the last decades that I remember).
And thats how they do it here when they can plan it. But what you have with alarming frequency in the us is a squad car driving up to a disturbance where someone broke out their pistol fired it off , and then the person they were shooting at returning fire. That's the dime a dozen LOW level schmucks. A man can feel right inadequate showing up to that shindig with nothing but a glock.
Interesting reading. What's your county department running around with?
Mine received a Maytag washer, two industrial tractors, an elliptical exercise bike...
Plus fourteen 7.62mm rifles and forty four 5.56mm rifles. The former are likely M14s or M24 sniper rifles, while the latter are probably M4 carbines.
Funny thing is, each rifle was listed as a separate item while shirts and safety glasses and duffel bags were grouped together. Wonder why that is...
You can do so, the problem is that the low level pot dealer is working for a bigger fish. Continue doing so and soon or later he will find you, send a brainless late teenager with a Glock and the cops will find your carbonized remains in a car trunk.
Fixed that for you.
If you're smarter and better than this gang leader, cops will find his remains, but as you'll need the low level pot dealer to sell drugs for you,
Labor gets pretty cheap in Detroit.
the next time you'll try to extend your territory you'll attack directly the one in charge and won't harm the low level pot dealer.
The conclusion is simple: as a low level pot dealer you don't need a gun, it can only bring you trouble. Just imagine what might happen if an ambitious drug dealer thinks you might be armed, you'll be the first to end in the trunk; anyway even if your boss get killed you'll still have "your business", so keep your gun at home to impress your little brother friends.
Wow. That's wonderfully naive.
I'll admit that a college pot dealer doesn't have much to worry about. His clients are probably less prone to violence, and his product really isn't worth killing over.
Now crack cocaine or methamphetamine... those dealers are going to be armed. Their clients are more violent, their product is much more desirable. If their competition decides to knock them off, they'll come armed. Being able to shoot back at least has deterrent value.
Shortly after I left Laramie for good, The local police department acquired a armored Bearcat. For some reason.
FYI, Laramie is a small town of about 30,000 or so, most of them college students, which is located about an hour from any other major town. It's very low crime, or at least low in the amount of crime that requires a swat response with tank. Last year a bank near where I shop was robbed. Even though the felon was long gone by the time cops showed, they still had police officers roaming the parking lot around the bank with automatic weapons. I have just always gotten the impression that local police are really waiting for some sort of Die Hard movie moment to live out all their action fantasies.
-I've lived in Russia and China, and that kind of firepower has NO need being deployed on US soil unless you are dealing with a Drug Cartel. A
MINE-PROOF APV?
-At the same time, I think looters should be shot...on sight. But these pictures and images do NOT belong in the US. This isn't right...This isn't Xinjiang or Chechnya...or the DMZ.
-I've lived in Russia and China, and that kind of firepower has NO need being deployed on US soil unless you are dealing with a Drug Cartel. A
MINE-PROOF APV?
-At the same time, I think looters should be shot...on sight. But these pictures and images do NOT belong in the US. This isn't right...This isn't Xinjiang or Chechnya...or the DMZ.
Do you think we should execute all thieves on sight or just those caught up in a mob mentality?
Just looters. I think shooting a few looters would stop the others. It would make you stop thinking "free stuff" and start thinking "stay home and live".
Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
I don't think gunning down human beings because they took stuff will make us better.
I don't think gunning down human beings because they took stuff will make us better.Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
No. Not because they took stuff. Because they consider themselves to only be part of a group.
When a town of 7,300 citizens with a below US average crime rate and only 10.5 police officers...
Has an MRAP (another article) and a SWAT Team and even a K9 unit... I would humbly suggest that something is very very wrong.
Just looters. I think shooting a few looters would stop the others. It would make you stop thinking "free stuff" and start thinking "stay home and live".
"Stay home and live" -I would rather protest in the street then live like a coward.
No. Not because they took stuff. Because they consider themselves to only be part of a group.I don't think gunning down human beings because they took stuff will make us better.Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
I just think that's a very low bar for murder.
I just think that's a very low bar for murder.No. Not because they took stuff. Because they consider themselves to only be part of a group.I don't think gunning down human beings because they took stuff will make us better.Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
It isn't murder if the person killed is only part of a group and sees him/herself as such. We aren't murderers for clipping toenails.
Krensky - after a bit more googling... I retract the K9 part of the argument (turns out it was a lovable looking labrador - recently retired but planned to be replaced) - but the SWAT and MRAP question are the bigger issue there.
Perhaps you'd like to explain the practical reasons for having an MRAP?
It isn't murder if the person killed is only part of a group and sees him/herself as such. We aren't murderers for clipping toenails.I just think that's a very low bar for murder.No. Not because they took stuff. Because they consider themselves to only be part of a group.I don't think gunning down human beings because they took stuff will make us better.Hmph. Whether you killing someone is terrible should be dependent on how much that person considers him/herself a person. Thus, kill someone who does, that's murder, standard procedure. Someone who sees him/herself only as part of a collective, well, we don't consider ourselves to be murderers for clipping our toenails.
Everything would be SO much better if we could abandon the collectivistic, primitive conditioning processes on the trash heap of history.
What other ways if thinking should we kill people for?
It isn't murder if the person killed is only part of a group and sees him/herself as such. We aren't murderers for clipping toenails.
So, any member of a criminal group basically isn´t human, he is just a toenail? That is IMO what this amounts to. Human rights are for each and every human, no matter what. That kind of thinking leads to more violence, arbitrary killings and lawlessness. It is very cold, inhumane and even barbarous to me. Even the Old Testament with "an eye for an eye" was a better law system than "kill them for looting". Sorry, but I can´t get behind that at all (unless that was meant to be ironic, then I fell for it).
Krensky - Exactly - on a base commercial level the initial re-fit costs (estimated on one site I read at ~$70,000) and ongoing maintenance on a behemoth that gets 5 miles to the gallon and tears up the streets it's driving on don't make fiscal sense.
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I don´t think more lethal force (it is kind of absurd to try and compare lethality, btw) and harsher penalties do much to reduce crime and violence. If it were, then why would anyone be sentenced to death in the US, and why is the homicide rate in the US still quite high? Most criminals live on the hope that they won´t get caught anyway (if they do think that far). Even countries who have the harshest penalties, where you get killed for relatively minor crimes, do have crime rates. So deterring does not seem to work all that well.
Kill somebody because they steal a TV or shoes... It's the same as killing somebody for pirating A Game of Thrones... It's a disgusting disregard for human life.
The goods can be replaced, the looters caught on film can be picked up later... No need for summary executions or making a frankly embarrassing situation for the US, much much worse.
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Then don't kill them, obviously. If they are a real person that associates with a group, it's murder. It is when they see themselves as merely a part of a group that they become valid targets.
Really, I am not serious. The mere problems involved in finding out what they are thinking makes it obviously unworkable.
However: There are so many ways to lose your individuality today. Everyone and their grandma wants you to give up your individuality, replacing it with obedience toward whatever. The idea of the well-oiled society where each person is merely a cog turning smoothly along with everyone else is surprisingly popular despite decades of suffering as consequences of the attempts that were made toward this in various places. If not nations, religions or organizations, it's mobs, riots and the like.
NOBODY should use these techniques to reach their goals. Humanity DOES answer to it, but the consequences are always terrible. And a response to it could be to only value the lives of these people as much as they value their own individuality. Consider it a thought experiment.
It is thought by people who already see themselves that way to be the only way to fight back against such exploitation.
The strongest goblin is he who stands alone! Not that Ibsen was much of a political activist...
We are not goblins, gobbo. And there is nothing preventing a number of individuals working together. It IS a matter of degree.
Would you like to take a bath in my spa, Madame Sissyl? It cures rickets.
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I don't know how isolated a case this is, but a few years back, the CHP was given a bunch of surplus M4 carbines. Thing was, every single one of them was converted over to semi-automatic; making them no better than the civilian AR-15...
The civilian AR platform rifle (such as the AR-15) is no different than any other semi-automatic rifle on the market; save that it LOOKS like a military weapon - and looking like a military weapon is not the same as BEING a military weapon.
I am not trying to start a gun control debate here, I am just pointing out that it is very probable that the local the law enforcement agencies receiving these surplus rifles are given rifles that have been converted to semi-auto, which makes them no different than a rifle you or I (at least here in the US) can buy at the local Wal-Mart...
BTW have you ever looked at the way other "free" countries deal with rioters and violence? What is going on in Ferguson is mild compared to that.Can you give any precise example?
South Korea, water cannons used 200 arrested, Dozens hurt
Youtube video from Ukraine early this year.
“Hooded individuals carrying iron bars throw projectiles at the men in blue [the riot police], but then, a few minutes later, surprise! They fall upon a demonstrator and beat him up before dragging him towards their colleagues who stand in a line a few yards away. A perverse tactic of the plainclothes cops, old as anything, but that always surprises.
“[The square] turns out to be a trap of the first order. While the police clean up the square, many people take refuge on the space at the centre of it around the statue (which represents the ‘Triumph of the Republic’—quite a symbol), hoping to escape arbitrary arrest. But they soon found themselves surrounded, pressed against each other, without any exit, stunned by the police tactics they are witnessing. Among the surrounded people, three men suddenly draw telescopic truncheons and attack a young man who has done nothing, hit him and drag him towards the line of CRS.... Some of the ‘peace keepers’ threaten the crowd with rubber bullets. After more than an hour of being surrounded, the police decide to free the captives, using their truncheons to break up the human chain that formed around the statue, insulting and checking the identity of each person present, one by one. Those who haven’t got papers go straight to the police station.”
Turkey: Police armored vehicle runs over a protester.
Police shoot 11 in Copenhagen as anti-Maastricht demonstrators riot after the result
Turkey & South Korea are not mature democracies.... They have a thin veneer... underneath is the Military in Turkey and Industry/Military in South Korea.
France - is reaping the fruits of its colonial past.
And demonstrating in france is a seriouse and national pasttime, as in South Korea. I mean France invented a few of those things and to be shockingly honest the police in france has a long hisory of their steel gloves over their iron fists.
But usually they work with nonlethal weapons and military grade equipment is restricted to the military and the selected few.
Having been in the military , we had some stupid jokes, but being prepared to go the Kosovo we also did learn a lot about weapons and escalation of forces. You do not defuse a riot by showing in heavy gear. You do by hiding it and only take it out as last ressort. If the other side also has military grade equippment. Otherwise why bring it out.
Why. Because people are stupid!!!
One of the guys with heavy gear might have had a bad week, his wive left him and has a short fuse. And if snaps, you have a major problem.
One the other side, one of the rioteers believes that no one will fire at him, or he is beyond reasoning. And he throws a stone or a molotov cocktail and it will go south from no on. BADLY.
Respect comes not from gun. Respect comes from conviction. Fear comes from guns. I ask you, do you respect someone with a drawn gun or someone who has it holstered and has the guts to stand in front of you and talks with you? I have seen booth and I do know my answer.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Sissyl
Obviously crosses are still burning in some people's mind...
The Klan is an organization that did exactly this, yes. Collectivist a~++#@!s. They are a good example why group-think represents the very worst in humanity.
