Ok, in Adventure Path #80, Empty Graves, of the Mummy's Mask adventure path, there's a chapter about Ancient Osirion deities... which are based on the real-world Ancient Egyptian pantheon.
I'm sure that I'm not the only one who's seeing a parallel with WotC D&D's Deities and Demigods, where they described pantheons based on the Greek/Roman, Eqyptian and Asgardian deities, in addition of their own D&D/Greyhawk Gods.
Seeing that Orision got an Ancient Pantheon based on the real deal, can we except Pathfinder to have info on the Olympian Gods, the Asgardians, the Babylonian Gods and even more Japanese deities?
Before saying that it's weird enough to see that people used to worship Horus in Golarion, please remind yourself that Golarion is often associated with the Middle Ages, which usually come AFTER the Antiquity age, which used to have a LOT of pantheons in various civilizations.
On a sidenote... kudos to everyone who can match regions to Ancient Greece, Italy and Babylon.
On a sidenote... kudos to everyone who can match regions to Ancient Greece, Italy and Babylon.
Isn't Azlant kind of ancient Greece (with a bit of atlantis and biblical babylon thrown in)? - Described by many as the pinacle of human society (in the time golarion represents).
An Asgård inspired pantheon could be cool, but i have no idea how to combine it with the current Deities. For example, Odin doesn't really make sense unless he actually IS the allfather, his character kind of disappear unless he has that heritage and the powers associated.
I do hope that some of the giant lore in the upcomming AP will be inspired by the Jotun (commonly called giants i think?) from nordic mythology. Especially the fire/ice part...
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There's supposed to be a Greece-analogue named Iblydos (IIRC), so it's *possible* that classic Greek gods could be worshipped there, or be 'ancient gods,' like the Egyptian gods formerly a big deal in Osirion.
Norse gods seems less likely, since there are already 'Viking' lands in the setting, and they are all about Desna, Erastil, Gorum and Torag.
Cheliax and Taldor seem to cover different aspects of Rome. Expansionist and militant, or old and fading from glory, respectively. Shelyn, in particular, feels kind of Venus/Aphrodite-ish, and Cayden has a few drops of Bacchus/Dionysus going on, but other than that, and maybe an Iomedae/Athena nod, the Taldan gods don't feel terribly 'Roman.' (Ooh, now I want a 'Greek pantheon' of Golarion gods. Sky'father' Gozreh. Gorum as Ares/Mars. Torag as Hephaestus/Vulcan, the ill-forged/stunted smith. Erastil as Diana/Artemis, the unmarried hunter.)
I don't think any place on Golarion currently has a Babylon / Sumeria vibe, 'though.
The Mwangi Expanse seems to avoid African divinities like Chango, Legba or Anansi, as well.
Despite my username, I'm not entirely in love with the idea of real world pantheons (or solo acts) showing up in fantasy settings with made up countries and races. I prefer A) a fantasy setting based strongly on real world nations and ethnicities and faiths *or* B) a fantasy setting based on none of the above, with countries like Cormyr and Cheliax and ethnicities like 'half elf.'
Mixing the two, like the Realms having fantasy versions of the middle east or far east or Egypt, and mostly total fantasy countries in place of Europe (and a peninsula the size of New York representing all of Africa...) just feels increasingly discordant to me, much like the Greyhawk pantheon of 'Pelor, Wee Jas, Trithereon, Xan Yae and Camazotz?'
I partially agree with Set: while I don't mind a fantasy setting and Earth existing in the same universe, this kind of stuff starts to get a little...sensitive. Sure you can talk about ancient Greek and Roman gods or Japanese mythological figures, but the question will inevitably go to:
"What about Christianity/Islam/Judaism/other real-world significant religion?"
In my head canon, I'd say that in the Pathfinder universe (ie not real life), deities can be born in three ways: either randomly, by another deity or source of mythical power raising them, or when enough people worship them, or at least an idea that's similar to theirs. As the number of worshippers goes down, the power of that deity wanes and eventually vanishes when there are exactly zero worshipers.
On Pathfinder's Earth, I'd say that the reason why priests can't directly channel power from their divine patrons is because magic on Earth is all but extinct. Maybe they could have done so thousands of years ago, when magic was as prevalent on Earth as it was on Golarion, but by the year 1918, that no longer happens. Were magic to return in a significant manner, I'm sure we'd see priests in the 1920's curing light wounds or creating water from their hands.
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I'm with Neongelion on this. I ran a campaign that involved a small bit of Earth-travel with merely a passing reference to the religions that existed there, and the theological questions that players asked out-of-game had alot of implications that would've trampled on the sensitivities of any religious players that might've been at my table (although I personally found them hilarious).
"So what domains is Yaweh/Yehovah/Allah?"
"NOPE. NOT GOING THERE. NOT ANSWERING THAT."
"If Jesus died on the cross, then doesn't that mean he has stats?"
"NOPE. NOT GOING THERE. NOT ANSWERING THAT."
Also, the body of a mostly-naked man nailed to a cross while his face is contorted in pain is a pretty terrifying holy symbol to those who've never seen such a symbol before in their lives. The roleplaying that this misunderstanding prompted was absolutely priceless, though.
I haven't looked at Mummy's Mask, but it seems weird that they'd use real-world religious names instead of creating their own analogues. Seems like a can of worms was needlessly opened.
I'm with Neongelion on this. I ran a campaign that involved a small bit of Earth-travel with merely a passing reference to the religions that existed there, and the theological questions that players asked out-of-game had alot of implications that would've trampled on the sensitivities of any religious players that might've been at my table (although I personally found them hilarious).
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't looked at Mummy's Mask, but it seems weird that they'd use real-world religious names instead of creating their own analogues. Seems like a can of worms was needlessly opened.
Hmmm, I wouldn't exactly call it opening a can of worms, since I don't think there was any really big uproar about this. Still, if Paizo ever returns to Earth (which will probably only happen in the city of R'lyeh is my guess) they won't really dig into this too deeply, if at all.
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My favorite real-world mythology is Norse. But it doesn't easily sit next to other mythologies, as Ragnarok is such a driving force in the mythology. Practically everything that Odin does is done on order to delay Ragnarok. Either saying that Ragnarok isn't true or that it will entirely ignore large groups of gods and mortals makes the mythology much less than it would be in a pure form. (The same criticism applies to the watered-down Ragnarok that is the result of Christian influences, where Baldar comes back to life, and several other gods are spared, along with a human couple).
Hmmm, I wouldn't exactly call it opening a can of worms, since I don't think there was any really big uproar about this. Still, if Paizo ever returns to Earth (which will probably only happen in the city of R'lyeh is my guess) they won't really dig into this too deeply, if at all.I'm with Neongelion on this. I ran a campaign that involved a small bit of Earth-travel with merely a passing reference to the religions that existed there, and the theological questions that players asked out-of-game had alot of implications that would've trampled on the sensitivities of any religious players that might've been at my table (although I personally found them hilarious).
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't looked at Mummy's Mask, but it seems weird that they'd use real-world religious names instead of creating their own analogues. Seems like a can of worms was needlessly opened.
I don't think of it as an "uproar" so much as "endless barrage of questions on real-world religious stuff". Bring in one "real world" thing, and people will start asking about other "real world" things.
Despite my username...
Oh hi, Mr. Gerald Butler, how are you doing today :P ?
I'm not entirely in love with the idea of real world pantheons (or solo acts) showing up in fantasy settings with made up countries and races. I prefer A) a fantasy setting based strongly on real world nations and ethnicities and faiths *or* B) a fantasy setting based on none of the above, with countries like Cormyr and Cheliax and ethnicities like 'half elf.'
Mixing the two, like the Realms having fantasy versions of the middle east or far east or Egypt, and mostly total fantasy countries in place of Europe (and a peninsula the size of New York representing all of Africa...) just feels increasingly discordant to me, much like the Greyhawk pantheon of 'Pelor, Wee Jas, Trithereon, Xan Yae and Camazotz?'
I get your opinion. However, it's kinda hard to be get annoyed by an "ancient" pantheon that "doesn't exist" anymore in Golarion. The ancient "Egyptian" Gods seem to have disappear over the centuries.
But then you have Sun Wukong as an actual Tian Xian deity...
But then you have a bunch of fiends, like Asmodeus, Baphomet and others, as actual deities, despite being real-world mythological figures...
So yeah... while I understand the unnecessity for real-world gods, it does add to the region's lore. Brevoy, The Lands of the Linnorm Kinds (literally labelled as "frigid viking homeland") and the Lands of the Mammoth Lords could have gotten an Ancient Brevoy pantheon based on the Norse Gods.
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How about some comparatively obscure pantheons for a change, like the pre-Roman Ancient Iberian gods, some Slavic gods, the non-Chinese Tibetan gods, the gods of innumerable different African civilizations (and not just the ones we know through Voudou, though they're nifty), the Polynesian gods, the underappreciated Dravidian pantheon of Southern India, and the pre-Colonial Australian gods?
To name only a few, of course....
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How about some comparatively obscure pantheons for a change, like the pre-Roman Ancient Iberian gods, some Slavic gods, the non-Chinese Tibetan gods, the gods of innumerable different African civilizations (and not just the ones we know through Voudou, though they're nifty), the Polynesian gods, the underappreciated Dravidian pantheon of Southern India, and the pre-Colonial Australian gods?
To name only a few, of course....
Chenobog! Anansi! Pele! A bunch of other peeps I've never heard of. Heck yeah. 'Mythology' tends to go to that 'Greek/Roman + Norse and maybe Egyptian...' well quite a bit.
How about some comparatively obscure pantheons for a change, like the pre-Roman Ancient Iberian gods, some Slavic gods, the non-Chinese Tibetan gods, the gods of innumerable different African civilizations (and not just the ones we know through Voudou, though they're nifty), the Polynesian gods, the underappreciated Dravidian pantheon of Southern India, and the pre-Colonial Australian gods?
To name only a few, of course....
The problem with using comparatively obscure pantheons is that they're, well, comparatively obscure. I don't know a good source for myths/legends/backgrounds from such cultures, so I wouldn't be able to get a good feel for what their attitudes and personalities are, or what their interrelationships are. Good sources are probably out there, somewhere, but I don't know where.
The storm giant gods Aegirran, Skode, Skrymir, and Tjasse are based off of the Norse beings Aegir, a sea jotun, Skadi, goddess of skiing and hunting, Skrymir, a giant that Thor and Loki encounter during their journey to get Thor's hammer back, and Tjasse, a jotun who kidnapps Idunn.
I would love to see the Greek, Norse, Japanese, Aztec, and Hindu pantheons well the top 20 for each any way.
Iblydos has home-grown "hero-gods" who bear a thematic link to Greek heroes like Herakles, but have no direct link (no mention of Olympus or any analogue, for example)
We've seen a couple of Vudrani deities (Irori, for one, but also some different ones in Distant Shores), so it seems doubtful we'll be seeing direct imports of Lord Shiva or Shakti- given Vudra's stated diverse polytheism, you could certainly include them on your own, but an official writeup seems doubtful.
The Dragon Empires Gazetteer included a pantheon which had real-world mythological figures (Sun Wukong, por ejemplo), closely related modifications of the same (Tsukiyo is a clear modification of Tsukuyomi/Tsukiyomi), less closely related modifications (Yaezhing has traveled a certain malevolent distance from Yanluo), and whole-cloth inventions (Shizuru may be a samurai-sponsoring sun goddess, but she doesn't really correspond directly to much of Amaterasu's traditional character, and General Susumu shares little beyond wrath with Susanoo).
Pretty sure Osiron's relatively (for a game) faithful transposition of the Egyptian deities is going to be the exception, not the rule.
Iblydos has home-grown "hero-gods" who bear a thematic link to Greek heroes like Herakles, but have no direct link (no mention of Olympus or any analogue, for example)
We've seen a couple of Vudrani deities (Irori, for one, but also some different ones in Distant Shores), so it seems doubtful we'll be seeing direct imports of Lord Shiva or Shakti- given Vudra's stated diverse polytheism, you could certainly include them on your own, but an official writeup seems doubtful.
The Dragon Empires Gazetteer included a pantheon which had real-world mythological figures (Sun Wukong, por ejemplo), closely related modifications of the same (Tsukiyo is a clear modification of Tsukuyomi/Tsukiyomi), less closely related modifications (Yaezhing has traveled a certain malevolent distance from Yanluo), and whole-cloth inventions (Shizuru may be a samurai-sponsoring sun goddess, but she doesn't really correspond directly to much of Amaterasu's traditional character, and General Susumu shares little beyond wrath with Susanoo).
Pretty sure Osiron's relatively (for a game) faithful transposition of the Egyptian deities is going to be the exception, not the rule.
Osirion's current worshipped deities are Abadar, Irori, Lamashtu, Nethys, Norgorber, Pharasma, Rovagug and Sarenrae... but that didn't stop Paizo from adding real-life Egyptian Gods as "Ancient Gods".
In Tian Xia, Abadar, Desna, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma and Shelyn are worshipped alongside new Deities. There's nothing wrong in adding Ancient Gods baed on both the Japanese and Chinese pantheons, if Sun Wukong isn't a clear example that there is a real-life influence. The Age of Ashes and the Age of Ascendancy could have gathered now-forgotten deities. Hey, we ARE talking about a 10,000-year gap between Earthfall and the current year that the story of Pathfinder takes place.
How many regions are based on real-world Middle East? I keep losing track of it :P Those could have Ancient Gods based on the Hindu and Babylonian pantheons. I pointed out the northern regions being similar to Scandanavia, hence the addition of the Norse pantheon.
If it's Ancient, I don't think it would be that problematic...
There's a write up somewhere for the Egyptian pantheon for Osirion. I have a copy of that I downloaded, but can't find the link.
EDIT: Found it
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I would like to see the Greek and Norse(core 20) pantheons on Golarion.
Rather than seeing them on Golarion, which I really wouldn't (and didn't really want to see the Egyptian pantheon, for that matter), I wouldn't mind seeing a Pathfinder book with write-ups for the Greek and Norse, etc. pantheons in the setting-neutral side of things, for people using the Pathfinder rules, but not necessarily the Golarion setting.
Sort of 'Thor, Freyja, Athena and Apollo aren't in Golarion, but here's how we'd stat up their clergy and churches if they had worshippers on some other world in the Golarion-verse.'
Ditto Quetzalcoutl and Anansi and Chernobog and Raiden, etc. (Not just the old Deities and Demigods pantheons, either, but mix it up and throw in some Yoruba and Slavic goodness!)
I partially agree with Set: while I don't mind a fantasy setting and Earth existing in the same universe, this kind of stuff starts to get a little...sensitive. Sure you can talk about ancient Greek and Roman gods or Japanese mythological figures, but the question will inevitably go to:
"What about Christianity/Islam/Judaism/other real-world significant religion?"
{. . .}
Two words for you: GURPS Banestorm.