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Obviously evil. Yeah. Again, that is my point. As religious people are wont to do, she judged someone (which christians are not permitted to do), and stole (another no go according to most religions I know of), because she wanted to impose her religious tenets on someone who couldn't fight back. Sadly, it is precisely what I expect from most religious people. It is a pretty good argument for prohibiting religious ceremonies and teachings to people not of the age of maturity.
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. . . . .
Well, thank you for your cleverly phrased argument, Orthos.
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There are so many things wrong with that statement in so many ways that I'm just going to cut my losses and do something more productive with my evening.
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I agree with Sissyl on the religion part. Nobody should be forced to attend any kind of church until they legally come of age and have the right to chose what to believe in.
As for stealing, it's not stealing. An underage person doesn't own anything except themselves. Everything belongs to the parents. And as much kids hate it, it is so.
That does not absolve them of dickery when they destroy something their child holds dear.
We also have a problem with gifts from other relatives and acquaintances. What if I by my friend's son a tablet for his birthday. Is it legally his, or his parent's?
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So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
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So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
More like intolerance if intolerance. And the source of that intolerance has been identified (correctly) as religious doctrine.
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I'm not the bookburning type, but it's all my shit til you get out of my house and get your own house and get your own crap that you bought with your own money. See, this is because kids, although they think they know everything, don't actually know much of anything, and have to learn before they turn into adults that don't know anything and go around popping off about crap they really don't know about. They don't know what the hell they're doing, I do, and if they are using their crap to do dumb crap then I'm taking control of it, up to and including destruction or liquidation if need be. Plain and simple. This is why, frinstince, my kids can't have a motor bike, even though the dumbass next door bought his son one and he's already broken his leg riding it. I don't let my kids have bee bee guns either, and I don't have firearms in the house, although if I need one for some reason I will go and acquire one. They aren't old enough to make smart choices yet, and so by default I am the custodian of all of their physical property. If my son came home with a bee bee gun next month that he bought with his own money, I would take the bee bee gun away from him. I would not write him an apology letter, and if he called the police they would tell him to listen to his father because he knows what he's doing.
That is because if they tried to charge me with theft of his bee bee gun, I would sue them when somebody inevitably got their eye shot out.
Because, kids are dumbasses. They do dumb shit.
Now, if you bought my kid a tablet, I'd look at you really strange. Frankly I'd wonder if you were a child molester. You also have to understand that if my kid is using the tablet to do stupid crap, or stay up all night and not getting enough sleep because he's playing with his tablet, or god knows what else, then yes; he's not getting his tablet for a while, and.....well.....if you bought it for him, I'm not going to ask your permission in the matter. I guess I'd give you the tablet back: this is why I don't accept expensive gifts from neurotic people who think they've bought me with material objects.
Regarding religion; I don't think anybody knows if there's a god or whatever, and I really don't care what anybody thinks. My kids want to go to Sunday school they can, if they don't want to go I wouldn't force them to. It's not nearly as big a deal as freaked out atheists on the internet would have you believe. My son's a bible thumper and doesn't believe in cavemen even, my daughter's probably an atheist, and my other daughter, god only knows; she'll probably prove or disprove the existence of god once and for all. Next year it'll probably all change.
So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
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Get back on topic...
The problem ain't parents disciplining their kids anymore. It's dumbasses who let their kids run wild like little savages anymore.
We were at the bakery.....this is a sad story. There was a glass display case of desserts, and naturally the kids go up to it. So I tell my kids "keep your hands and faces off of that glass, some poor guy has to clean all that stuff! Think about other people once in a while!"
And the people working there were mystified. They'd never heard anybody tell their kids to not touch the glass.
Sad commentary really. I don't know if it's stupidity, selfishness, or a sad mixture of both.
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There are so many things wrong with that statement in so many ways that I'm just going to cut my losses and do something more productive with my evening.
Like hit yourself in the head with a bedroom slipper over and over or count the tile on the ceiling again. Or both at the same time.
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Yes. I am an atheist. And I am intolerant of intolerant shit people do. And proud of it, I might add. The reason religion is a bad idea for children is that it justifies and motivates uncountable vile, intolerant acts, and children have not yet learned critical thinking. So... they need to be free of religious indoctrination. And since most religious people claim that religion (at least their religion) is such a massively positive force in everyone's lives, there really shouldn't be a problem with waiting to recruit people until they are adults, right?
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More like intolerance if intolerance. And the source of that intolerance has been identified (correctly) as religious doctrine.So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
Nonsense, the source of that intolerance is intolerant people with crazy ideas, not religion. They may like to pretend it's something else but it's all on them.
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More like intolerance if intolerance. And the source of that intolerance has been identified (correctly) as religious doctrine.So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
Nonsense, the source of that intolerance is intolerant people with crazy ideas, not religion. They may like to pretend it's something else but it's all on them.
I would VERY much like to see data on that. It is an interesting claim, but I am afraid it really has very little to do with reality. In every such case (the satanist scare we're discussing, remember?), the offered excuse for the perpetrator is the same: RELIGION. There are official religious leaders preaching this kind of behaviour. Ask a random religious person if doing this kind of thing is wrong, what answer do you think you're likely to get?
No, you don't get to make that claim unsubstantiated, Aranna.
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I'm not the bookburning type, but it's all my s+*& til you get out of my house and get your own house and get your own crap that you bought with your own money. See, this is because kids, although they think they know everything, don't actually know much of anything, and have to learn before they turn into adults that don't know anything and go around popping off about crap they really don't know about. They don't know what the hell they're doing, I do, and if they are using their crap to do dumb crap then I'm taking control of it, up to and including destruction or liquidation if need be. Plain and simple. This is why, frinstince, my kids can't have a motor bike, even though the dumbass next door bought his son one and he's already broken his leg riding it. I don't let my kids have bee bee guns either, and I don't have firearms in the house, although if I need one for some reason I will go and acquire one. They aren't old enough to make smart choices yet, and so by default I am the custodian of all of their physical property. If my son came home with a bee bee gun next month that he bought with his own money, I would take the bee bee gun away from him. I would not write him an apology letter, and if he called the police they would tell him to listen to his father because he knows what he's doing.
That is because if they tried to charge me with theft of his bee bee gun, I would sue them when somebody inevitably got their eye shot out.
Because, kids are dumbasses. They do dumb s@%~.Now, if you bought my kid a tablet, I'd look at you really strange. Frankly I'd wonder if you were a child molester. You also have to understand that if my kid is using the tablet to do stupid crap, or stay up all night and not getting enough sleep because he's playing with his tablet, or god knows what else, then yes; he's not getting his tablet for a while, and.....well.....if you bought it for him, I'm not going to ask your permission in the matter. I guess I'd give you the tablet back: this is why I don't...
I, I don't even know what to say.
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More like intolerance if intolerance. And the source of that intolerance has been identified (correctly) as religious doctrine.So much intolerant atheism in here, sad.
Nonsense, the source of that intolerance is intolerant people with crazy ideas, not religion. They may like to pretend it's something else but it's all on them.
I would VERY much like to see data on that. It is an interesting claim, but I am afraid it really has very little to do with reality. In every such case (the satanist scare we're discussing, remember?), the offered excuse for the perpetrator is the same: RELIGION. There are official religious leaders preaching this kind of behaviour. Ask a random religious person if doing this kind of thing is wrong, what answer do you think you're likely to get?
No, you don't get to make that claim unsubstantiated, Aranna.
IDK - Does Communism and National Socialism count as secular belief systems that preached intolerance? Or intolerant people with intolerant ideas and notions?
I think those systems took more away from people than their right to play AD&D or read the latest Leomund's Tiny Hut article in Dragon magazine. Body counts are well documented.Bad people will find the tool that works: new economic systems (that purge), racial ideologies (that purge) and religions (that purge).
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And back on topic - while many fears were stoked by "Satan taking your soul" courtesy of the 700 club, I would say the majority was stoked by incredibly bad journalism.
Fear of suicide/murder/mind control didn't need satanic overtones to get parents excited. I saw the same terr-bad and ignorant news pieces on Punk rock and Punk rock violence in the early 80's you would have thought the world was going to be overrun by extras from the Road Warrior (I wish!). Some of those pieces were so ill-informed that they are laughable now if you watch them.
It wasn't the bible or the devil, it was ignorance. That religion was just a vehicle and method to extol concerns in some venues doesn't make religious intolerance the sole bad guy here - there were plenty of people who were afraid of gaming due to: bad press (see above) and Zero understanding of RPGs - "what, you don't have a board? It's all in your mind????" (eyes widen and while it doesn't sink in).
You don't need to be a bible thumper to be afraid of mind-control and cult behavior - keep in mind how many weird groups were flourishing in the late 60's and throughout the 70's. My cousin's cousin (so - not related) was also a gamer - his dad was very casual about faith and he was a brilliant engineer and he kept a sharp eye on his son's game and gaming habits. Why? Well because of the news.
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When I was young I remember being very concerned when I would hear about a shooting (they didn't happen as often) or a strange attack (sword) on the news. It would be a "here we go again" moment. The media loved this stuff because they knew people didn't understand it.
Also according to the media of the day we should all be dead by now from Africanized Honey Bees.
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Also, I don't see protecting people from religious indoctrination until they are old enough to make the choice themselves as intolerance. I see it as my duty.
And you can raise your kids how you see fit in that regard. But it would be sad if said kid wanted some kind of faith experience and you took it upon yourself as your "duty" to "protect" them from it.
Just saying that maybe you should be careful that you don't become a variation of the thing you hate.
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I would count neither communism nor nazism as secular belief systems, to be honest. Both preach the subsumption of the self into the idea of the Collective, just like religions preach the subsumption of the self into God (which the Church conveniently tells you about). Communism has a very strong transcendent streak in its Classless Society utopia. Nazism spent its time doing massive rallies in an even more extreme form of the music, ritual and trance-focused actions than most churches today do. Brainwashing methods remain the same whatever the cause. It is a difficult case to make that they were secular.
If it is as you say, that bad people will use the tools available to spread their shit, we must be certain to deprive them of as many of those tools as we possibly can. And that certainly includes religion.
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Also, I don't see protecting people from religious indoctrination until they are old enough to make the choice themselves as intolerance. I see it as my duty.And you can raise your kids how you see fit in that regard. But it would be sad if said kid wanted some kind of faith experience and you took it upon yourself as your "duty" to "protect" them from it.
Just saying that maybe you should be careful that you don't become a variation of the thing you hate.
If a child of mine wanted to join Hare Krishna, the Moon sect, the Scientologists, or any number of other sects, I would want to protect them from that, indeed. Very much so. Why would this change because the sect is bigger and more influential, like the RCC? True, since they are bigger, they can afford to lose a few here and there, and they are somewhat more tolerant toward outsiders as a result, but the principles are the same: We have the right to decide what is moral and not, we see people as members or not members, we accept no challenge to the authority we do have from within or from without.
People who defend religion are usually not big on discussing the practices of what they call NSMs, New Spiritual Movements, to distinguish them from the older power structures they cherish, no.
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People who defend religion are usually not big on discussing the practices of what they call NSMs, New Spiritual Movements, to distinguish them from the older power structures they cherish, no.
And people who equate secular economic or political systems like Communism and National Socialism as religions for the sake of not looking wrong are self deluded and I should avoid having a conversation with them.
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Can we switch the tracks back to the original topic, please?
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Hey if a kid wants to go to church to see how it is, or starts reading religious texts, sure, but nobody should have the right to force it on them. Ever. And that is what people unwittingly do when they take their children to church.
My experience has been that the wisest course of action is to introduce your children to whatever faith tradition you are most comfortable with when they are young, and then after you have established a place for them to go with their spiritual questions, you leave it up to them whether and how often they attend.
The danger that you run into if you don't do that is that they can grow up spiritually hungry and fall pray to the first pleasant-sounding cult that attempts to recruit them. I saw that happen far too often to my peers who were raised without religion. I think of it as "innoculating" them against virulent strains.
I'm a staunch Unitarian, so I believe that everyone should define their own spiritual practice for themselves (including *no* spiritual practice). But before you can do that you have to have the vocabulary.
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You mean you're a good person?
No, he means he has a Christian attitude despite not believing in God, because that was the culture he was raised in.
Don't we already have a thread about civil religion discussion?
It was only a matter of time.
*blocked*
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Would he go nuts over it?
He'd probably write me out of the will, disown me and ask the rest of the family not to speak to me under threat of writing them out of the will, too.
He has generally been a great person, but that is one thing he was never willing to reconsider.
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Ouch. OUCH. What the heck?Would he go nuts over it?He'd probably write me out of the will, disown me and ask the rest of the family not to speak to me under threat of writing them out of the will, too.
He has generally been a great person, but that is one thing he was never willing to reconsider.
Yeah, it is astonishing how many people put pride and personal belief ahead of blood and love.
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I will also add to the thread here that not all the persecutors had religion as their base (although most did). Dr. Thomas Radecki, an American psychiatrist, used his medical credentials to try and convince people that playing D&D had adverse psychological effects.
Radecki held that any depiction of violence would desensitize the teen mind towards violent acts and that they would commit more violent crimes or commit suicide at a higher rate than normal. He applied this to TV and movies, but also took a strong stand against D&D because it allowed the teen participants to act out violent acts and see them as a good thing through the rewards they got.
He was essentially discredited on this issue and—due to some highly questionable activities unrelated to his assertions on violence or D&D—has had his medical licence revoked a number of times.
So there was at least one questionable hack who tried to make this a scientific issue and failed miserably.
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In the late 1980s, I wasn't hired for a summer job over the anti-D&D hysteria.
I worked as Counselor-In-Training at a YMCA summer camp. One rainy day, I unpacked my copy of Toon, and all the kids made cartoon characters. Their characters wreaked imaginary havoc on a New Kids on the Block concert, and a good time was had by all.
The next year I was a Volunteer at the same camp. I didn't play any RPGs with the kids, but I didn't hide the fact that I was still into gaming.
The third year I applied to be a full-fledged Counselor. The head of the camp was unaware of the D&D hysteria. When I tried to explain RPGs to him, his closest point of reference was improvisational theatre. Unfortunately, the second in command (I forget their titles) was a woman who had bought into the anti-D&D hype. She told me that she remembered my interest in gaming, that she had hoped I would have "grown out of it" in the intervening years. Because I hadn't renounced D&D, she made sure I didn't get the job.
A friend of mine once showed me a book one of his relatives had written about the evils of D&D. What struck me the most about the book was the fact that it contained no original research. Everything in it was referenced from other anti-D&D authors. I don't think this author had personally read a D&D book in his life. My lasting impression from the book was more about the evils of lazy research methodology than the evils of D&D.
Mother burn all my gaming stuff. I was labeled a witch by small minded small town people. Then I was tossed out on my ear by my mother at the age 16. I was a B+ student and eagle scout.