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Could you two-weapon fight with a two-hander by having your "off-hand" be an unarmed strike? either normally, or via freeing your hand with a free action to literally make it your off-hand?
this was brought to my attention as a possibility because of a line in TWF
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
I know a monk can flurry with a number of monk two-handers but I mean just in general with TWF can I use my fist/head/knee-cap as an off-hand weapon while my hand is actually occupied? Basically, I know you can attack with an unarmed strike while your hands are full, and I know you can attack with a two-hander, but can you use them to get bonus attacks via the TWF feat chain?
Sure, but it's suboptimal due to only doing 1d3 damage plus strength, of course, and you need Improved Unarmed Strike to not draw an attack of opportunity. It is lethal damage, with the feat, though.
I'm perfectly aware of this, I just wanted to know if it was possible. seems a little too quirky to be true, like I was missing a FAQ or something.
No it doesn't work. Look for a faq on twf 2h weapons and armor spikes. Unfortunately I'm on phone and ca not do the lengthy explanation. But searching g the forums for those teems should bring up threads on it.
It was ruled that you only have 1 offhand even for weapons that don't use a hand and it's used up with the two-handed attack. Now there IS one race that comes with more than one off-hand and that race could use this tactic. A Kasatha can hit you with a great club and 'offhand' an unarmed strike.
yeah, i was aware of the armor spikes FAQ, and the thread your probably talking about, but it didn't seem to end up with anything to do with unarmed strikes... even though it started with this very question.(it was kind of annoying that it got derailed by armored spikes)
It was ruled that you only have 1 offhand even for weapons that don't use a hand and it's used up with the two-handed attack.
I can't find this.
Expect some GM's to say no if you don't follow those 'unwritten rules' if they've read the Armor Spikes FAQ.
Expect some GM's to say no if you don't follow those 'unwritten rules' if they've read the Armor Spikes FAQ.
well, i am the GM so...
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Ah, then Toss all that [blank] out the door and kick while you use a greatsword then (heck, use armor spikes too and ignore the FAQ). I take a very dim view of having a ruling based on unwritten rules.
Ah, then Toss all that [blank] out the door and kick while you use a greatsword then (heck, use armor spikes too and ignore the FAQ). I take a very dim view of having a ruling based on unwritten rules.
The rule that two-handed weapons require your off-hand is in the book. CRB pg 141
Edit: but, yes, ignore it if you want to. I do in my home games.
Ah, then Toss all that [blank] out the door and kick while you use a greatsword then (heck, use armor spikes too and ignore the FAQ). I take a very dim view of having a ruling based on unwritten rules.The rule that two-handed weapons require your off-hand is in the book. CRB pg 141
while great and all, i just have the internet, and unarmed strikes don't even need a hand(you can unarmed strike just fine while holding a two-hander, i just want to know if bonus attacks can be gained).
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Oh?
Page 141 of CRB, in completion:
are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons.
Characters of other classes are proficient with an
assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial
or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with
unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by
their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is
not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used
for making melee attacks, though some of them can be
thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or
projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears,
ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is
a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets
that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the
wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or
Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10
feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical
Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate
size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent
creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Double Weapons: Dire f lails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome
hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and
two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character
can
f ight with both ends of a double weapon as if f ighting
with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack
penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just
as though the character were wielding a one-handed
weapon
and a light weapon (see page 202).
The character can also choose to use a double weapon
two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature
wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a
double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used
in any given round.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears,
darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents,
shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder
applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown
weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw
a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee
weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range
column on Table 6–4), and a character who does so takes
a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or onehanded
weapon is a standard action, while throwing a twohanded
weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the
type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a
natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.
Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings,
heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows,
longbows, composite longbows, half ling sling staves,
hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile
weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to
use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no
Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon
unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow,
or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength,
apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition:
arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for
blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling
sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require
an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is
destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that
misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated
as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting
masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see
Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens to
them after they are thrown.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes
to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee
weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s
size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed
weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to
use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can
be used while grappling (see Chapter 8). Add the wielder’s
Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with
a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or half the
wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using
two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on
damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon
were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either
the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength
bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed
weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength
bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon
is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2
times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a twohanded
melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the
character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee
attacks with such a weapon.
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This
designation indicates the size of the creature for which the
weapon was designed.
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an
object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size
of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an
Light weapons require a primary or off hand. One handed requires primary or off hand. Two handed weapons require both. Yes you have a free "limb" to make the attack but the "off hand" required for a light weapon (which an unarmed strike is) is consumed by the two handed attack.
but.. it doesn't say that anywhere o-o, it just states that a weapon needs to either be in the main hand, the off hand, or both. this makes me believe you "lied" in my other thread.
I'll ask it again here, what happens when a weapon is wielded in two-off hands? what strength mod does it get, and can you use it for two-weapon fight.
Light weapons require a primary or off hand. One handed requires primary or off hand. Two handed weapons require both. Yes you have a free "limb" to make the attack but the "off hand" required for a light weapon (which an unarmed strike is) is consumed by the two handed attack.In no place of hte description of two hand weapond does "off had" appear.
No, it says both hands. Referring to the previously mentioned primary hand and off hand.
The rule is easily changeable if you don't like it. I see no reason to try to confuse the issue after a lengthy discussion that lead to a FAQ. The rule is clear. Use it or don't.
The FAQ is (relatively) clear, the rule was not.No.
The FAQ is vague, and has no basis in RAW, and was specifically called out as part of unwritten rules, by developers.
I'm sorry I just don't understand this. You know what the rules are, regardless of how vague or complicated they might be. What do you hope to gain by intentionally confusing people asking for clairification?
...it subsumes your next off-hand attack as well as an iterative attack.
Citation needed.
I've seen you make this claim before, but I don't find it supported by the rules and/or FAQ.
(I believe I've seen you state before that with TWF, ITWF, GTWF and BAB +16 that you could make a two handed attack, release one hand, then make 3 more iteratives and 2 off-hand attacks - though I may be remembering wrong).
From the FAQ
...as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Not the next off-hand attack. ANY off hand attacks. You are either TWF or you are THF. No mixing and matching allowed in the above.
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I'm sorry I just don't understand this. You know what the rules are, regardless of how vague or complicated they might be. What do you hope to gain by intentionally confusing people asking for clarification?The FAQ is (relatively) clear, the rule was not.No.
The FAQ is vague, and has no basis in RAW, and was specifically called out as part of unwritten rules, by developers.
I have something against lying to posters looking for clarification.
It's not cut and dry, and it certainly is not RAW.
Now if that action economy was written anywhere in the rules...
You have hands to wield and you have attack economy. Attack economy involves your iterative attacks, off-hand attacks, and bonus attacks from sources like Haste. Hands to wield concerns itself with the actual hands or alternative limbs used to manipulate the weapon. All two-handed weapons, by default, require two hands in the literal sense. All one-handed weapons require one hand and, optionally, can benefit from applying a second hand; again, hands in the literal sense. Most light weapons need to be wielded in one hand but some leave the hand free for other tasks (ie. Gauntlet, Cestus), others utilize alternate limbs (ie. Boulder Helmet, Boot Blade), and others still are abstracted in that they don't use a particular limb at all (ie. Unarmed Strike, Armor Spikes). Making an off-hand attack requires both the attack economy as well as the proper ability to manipulate the weapon. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp; the game is all about action economy so it's not that much of a stretch that individual attacks are also budgeted.
I understand how you came to your viewpoint from an action economy standpoint. I'm asking for rules that support you in the idea that making a 2-handed attack only uses a single off-hand attack. I don't believe RAW or RAI supports the idea of mixing and matching - that is what I'm asking you to provide rules support for - as opposed to "Here is how it could work according to Kazaan" :).
...and has no basis in RAW...
I was under the impression that FAQ's are RAW? (I'm assuming what you actually mean here is that prior to the FAQ being written there was no RAW to give any indication of what the FAQ calls out as the rule). So it may not have been RAW before, but it is now.
But it is pretty cut and dry. You cannot wield a 2-handed weapon and also make off-hand attacks (regardless of what type of second weapon you are using) unless something specifically calls out that you can do so.
RAW = rules as written, right? so i think he literally means the rules in the book don't say that.
also, I'd still like to know if it's possible to hold a weapon in 2 off-hands and what strength bonus it would get...
I also, don't really see why if you're capable of wielding 2 weapons in 2 hands each, everything suddenly explodes.
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Although the issue of metaphorical "hands" gets tricky to explain in Pathfinder, this particular question has already been answered in the FAQ.
If you're a standard PC race, and are already swinging a two-handed weapon, you can't also make an off-hand attack.
With exotic, multi-armed races, it gets trickier. Luckily, these races aren't allowed in PFS, so if this is for a home game (which it sounds like it is) feel free to rule as you please.
Although the issue of metaphorical "hands" gets tricky to explain in Pathfinder, this particular question has already been answered in the FAQ.
If you're a standard PC race, and are already swinging a two-handed weapon, you can't also make an off-hand attack.
With exotic, multi-armed races, it gets trickier. Luckily, these races aren't allowed in PFS, so if this is for a home game (which it sounds like it is) feel free to rule as you please.
alchemists can gain arms...
well, i can't say i know anything about PFS so, okay. i don't like it but okay.
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It seems there are quite a few people spread out over these two threads who weren't around last year, when this was a really hot topic. Suffice it to say that these discussions were hashed out with a Developer at the time, and going over them again is really pointless. I strongly suggest you search for those threads, and read them, before posting anything more on the matter here.
Otherwise there will be thousands (literally) of duplicate posts.
alchemists can gain arms...Although the issue of metaphorical "hands" gets tricky to explain in Pathfinder, this particular question has already been answered in the FAQ.
If you're a standard PC race, and are already swinging a two-handed weapon, you can't also make an off-hand attack.
With exotic, multi-armed races, it gets trickier. Luckily, these races aren't allowed in PFS, so if this is for a home game (which it sounds like it is) feel free to rule as you please.
But they do not gain any extra "primary" or "off hands"
i feel like i'm reading something else after digging into some of the other threads that have been mentioned.
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
to me, this suggested that they don't get an extra weapon when you gain an arm, but it says it can wield weapons and attack normally, and even calls out two weapon fighting as being used to allow it.
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Just be a half-orc and combine a greatsword with a bite attack. Even though the bite attack is made at -5 and only gets .5 x STR it still adds about 20% more DPR (at 1st level) compared to a human that takes Weapon Focus with their greatsword.
And, as far as I know, it follows all rules; written or otherwise.
But using a bite attack or unarmed strikes to gain additional damage does have diminishing returns. The higher level you get, the less effective it will become, and eventually the character that focuses all of their resources (feats, wealth, etc.) into a single weapon will come out ahead in the arms race.
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Right, you can TWF while holding a torch or wand in your third hand. Or a reach weapon and a melee weapon at the same time but not gain any extra attacks a round with them. Or my personal favorite, have claws from another source and claim an attack routine of unarmed strike (kick/manufactured weapon from BAB) second kick (manufactured weapon with all the horrid penalties of TWF without feats) claw, claw. Then pop a feral mutagen or two levels or ranger for more claws. Use the new claws to replace your two kicks and suddenly you have the same number of attacks but they are all primary natural attacks at full BAB. It smells cheesy though.i feel like i'm reading something else after digging into some of the other threads that have been mentioned.
to me, this suggested that they don't get an extra weapon when you gain an arm, but it says it can wield weapons and attack normally, and even calls out two weapon fighting as being used to allow it.
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
Don't work.
Claws go on the hands, they can't go on the feet.Claws and Talons: If I gain claw attacks, can I put those claw attacks on my feet?
If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
Talons are much like claws, but go on a creature's feet, usually a bipedal creature (especially a flying bipedal creature such as a giant eagle or harpy). An ability that grants you claw attacks cannot be used as if they were talon attacks (in other words, you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics so you can use it on a different limb).
posted Nov 14, 2013
