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I'm back and this time with yet another character creation question!
As you may have guessed from the title I am unsure if I should go Fighter or Ranger into Lantern Bearer.
So first off, I'll be playing Wrath of the Righteous and will be going with mythic champion.
I'm aiming for a mostly ranged character making lots of use of my bow but also no slouch if I need to use my rapier. Both base classes seem like good options, I just can't seem to decide which would be more beneficial. I like the bonus feats and weapon training and armor training (probably just go with a chain shirt) from Fighter and Ranger focused on archery seems like it would be useful, and maybe even favored terrain but I'm unsure of the environment in the campaign. Kinda feel like Fighter edges out here but I can't be sure.
I do have rolls for stats already as well.
16
14
15
12
18
16
So I figure I can make a pretty darn good character with those, prob dump CHA since I'm not going for an animal companion if I do go Ranger.
Not sure if I've left out anything important, but I really appreciate any advice, tips or tricks.
Those are pretty beastly stats! Personally I have a soft spot for Switch-Hitter Rangers, who can use bows pretty damn well at range and then smack stuff with a big sword up close, and you definitely have the stats to do that well. Using the Archery weapon style lets you bypass a lot of feat taxes and get to the juicy stuff, but you'll inevitably end up with less feats than the fighter.
The Ranger does have a good deal of out-of-combat versatility due to wider skill lists and more skillpoints. As a plus, in WotR you'll probably get a lot of benefit from Favored Enemy as you'll likely face plenty of demons based on the introductory blurb.
TL;DR - I like Rangers. They can do archer/melee well, and noncombat stuff too. Fighters will probably be better archers though.
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Haha yea my dice were kind and we went with the 4d6, drop the lowest method.
So as for the switch hitter thing, I already know I'll be using a rapier and getting a great bonus from my likely high dex. Also, the Lantern Bearer has favored enemy built in so that was another concern of mine, basically making the Ranger sort of redundant since I'll be getting two favored enemies from the PrC, but I don't get it until a bit later.
The Archery style definitely looked like a great bonus from Ranger though and part of the reason I'm having a bit of trouble deciding.
Those are pretty beastly stats! Personally I have a soft spot for Switch-Hitter Rangers, who can use bows pretty damn well at range and then smack stuff with a big sword up close, and you definitely have the stats to do that well. Using the Archery weapon style lets you bypass a lot of feat taxes and get to the juicy stuff, but you'll inevitably end up with less feats than the fighter.
The Ranger does have a good deal of out-of-combat versatility due to wider skill lists and more skillpoints. As a plus, in WotR you'll probably get a lot of benefit from Favored Enemy as you'll likely face plenty of demons based on the introductory blurb.
TL;DR - I like Rangers. They can do archer/melee well, and noncombat stuff too. Fighters will probably be better archers though.
I'm curious, if you can get into stuff like Snap Shot and PB Master, does one even need to switch-hit?
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I found another thread from a while ago and there is what seems to be a pretty good looking build in there using Fighter/Lantern Bearer.
I had been planning on playing an Elf though and I believe that is for Half-Elf so I wouldn't get the skill focus: perception. So now I'm wondering if I should switch for the skill focus bonus feat along with the bonuses from Fighter.
I would go with the ranger till at least 6th level and pick up point blank master and then never put down the bow. Keep in mind that favored enemy from both class stacks so by 8th level you will be +6 vs. evil outsiders and can take the mythic path ability of endless hatred to increase that by 2 and bypass all damage reduction.
If you are playing an elf just use an elven curve blade.
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I would go with the ranger till at least 6th level and pick up point blank master and then never put down the bow. Keep in mind that favored enemy from both class stacks so by 8th level you will be +6 vs. evil outsiders and can take the mythic path ability of endless hatred to increase that by 2 and bypass all damage reduction.
If you are playing an elf just use an elven curve blade.
Wouldn't I be able to do the same thing with Fighter and gain more feats while also getting bonuses to my weapon?
You can pick up point blank master as a fighter, but you will not get the extra +4 favored enemy on evil outsiders. You also lose all the other ranger abilities like spells, and the ability to share half your favored enemy bonus to the rest of the party.
Rangers also get a lot more skills and more class skills. Many of them become class skills when you become a lantern bearer but that is not till at least 6th level. Having perception and stealth as class skills from 1st level is a huge advantage at low levels.
At 6th level a fighter has 3 bonus feats and one of them has to be used for point blank shot, and the other for weapon specialization to qualify for point blank mastery. A ranger has 2 bonus feats and does not need point blank shot. The fighter does have weapon training, but ranger has favored enemy bonus of +4 to hit and damage. The fighters extra feats are not that important at low levels. If you were going as a strait fighter it would make more of difference.
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You can pick up point blank master as a fighter, but you will not get the extra +4 favored enemy on evil outsiders. You also lose all the other ranger abilities like spells, and the ability to share half your favored enemy bonus to the rest of the party.
Rangers also get a lot more skills and more class skills. Many of them become class skills when you become a lantern bearer but that is not till at least 6th level. Having perception and stealth as class skills from 1st level is a huge advantage at low levels.
At 6th level a fighter has 3 bonus feats and one of them has to be used for point blank shot, and the other for weapon specialization to qualify for point blank mastery. A ranger has 2 bonus feats and does not need point blank shot. The fighter does have weapon training, but ranger has favored enemy bonus of +4 to hit and damage. The fighters extra feats are not that important at low levels. If you were going as a strait fighter it would make more of difference.
Good points, though wouldn't I want precise shot since I'll be in combat? It needs point blank as a prerequisite.
Precise shot is good to have but not as necessary as it may seem. If you are fighting something one on one you can take a five foot step back and you are no longer firing into a melee. On the opponents next turn they will of course take a five foot step and full attack you, but you can still get off your full attack without any penalty. At low levels you function as a switch hitter using an elven curve blade instead of a rapier for massive damage.
The ranger’s advantage is he is able to function better at lower levels than fighter. He is also a lot more versatile than the fighter. If you were going to stay a fighter and not multiclass than the fighter may be stronger, but since you plan on going into lantern bearer you are not gaining that much for what you would get as a ranger.
Also keep in mind that your favored class bonus is more than hit and damage. You also get it on bluff, knowledge’s, perception, sense motive, and survival. You are also allowed to make knowledge checks untrained. With Perception being a class skill, having a decent Wisdom and being an elf you will spot almost any demon unless it is invisible. Also tracking a demon is going to be ridiculously easy.
If all you are interested in is feats than actually a Zen Archer has both a ranger and a fighter beat. By 6th level they will have just about any archery related feat you need except rapid shot, and many shot. In reality they don’t actually need those feats because they have flurry with bow and the ability to use add an extra attack by using a ki point. The Zen Archer will have improved precise shot which even a fighter cannot get until 11th level. They have weapon specialization which the ranger does not get. They also have perfect shot and can use it 6 times per day which a fighter can never have that many uses per day.
Favored enemy is normally a very situational ability, but the adventure path you are on will have a ton of evil outsider’s encounters. When you are almost guaranteed that you will encounter your favored enemy frequently it becomes incredibly useful. If you were on a different adventure path than maybe I would be hard pressed to choose between ranger and fighter, but in Wraith of the Righteous it is hard to pass up.
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First I want to say thank you for all your replies, you have been really great in helping me to understand things better and think of how things will work together.
I did end up building out my character with Ranger 1-6 then going Lantern Bearer at 7. This way I was able to get Improved Precise Shot at 6 from the Ranger feats and get Rapid and Manyshot by 7. I think I will end up going for things like Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes next to end up getting as many attacks in as possible in a round. Also the favored enemy and terrain bonuses (I chose underground, hoping it's worth it) I can now see are going to be a great boost. I also picked Alarm and Residual Tracking as my spells since they seem super useful given the area we will be in.
At first I was focused on feats but after going over things more I can see how useful Ranger will be since I do want to have utility as well.
Now regarding Precise Shot, the way I understood it was that anytime that I shoot at a target in melee, such as an enemy fighting a party member, I won't have to take the -4 now. Is that correct or did I interpret it wrong?
Thanks again for all your help!
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As you're going to be an elf/half-elf anyway I'd recommend taking the trait Treerazer's Bane as one of your traits for an additional +2 damage to demons. Have to be from Kyonin but you can fluff it as going out to learn new demon hunting tactics in the worldwound to bring back to combat treerazer or something...
Now regarding Precise Shot, the way I understood it was that anytime that I shoot at a target in melee, such as an enemy fighting a party member, I won't have to take the -4 now. Is that correct or did I interpret it wrong?
That is correct.
If your ally is directly between you and the enemy there's still a cover bonus to the enemies AC, but yes, you lose the general -4 for shooting into melee.
A ranger is a prepared divine caster so they have access to their entire spell list. Each day they have to choose which of spells they memorize. Alarm and Residual Tracking are decent all propose spells but be aware you are able to change them as needed.
Aspect of the Falcon and Gravity bow are also going to be very useful for an archer. A good strategy is to have a couple of different spells choices based on what you expect to encounter. You have access to a decent amount of utility spells, but a lot is going to be dependent on what other spell casters you have in the party. For example if you have just finished an adventure and have a lot of loot but it is too much to carry Ant Haul cast on the two strongest party members will allow you to take a lot more than you would normally be able to carry.
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Mysterious Stranger, thank you again for enlightening me, I had no idea Ranger spells worked that way since I had only familiarized myself with Wizards so far and just a little at that. That's very good to know, I can really see what you mean about their utility now.
Also thank you Cheburn for clearing that up, it's definitely something I want to have since there is two melee in my group and will be firing into the fray often.
Now as for what Avr mentioned, if I have Improved Precise Shot then enemies won't get that cover bonus unless they are under full cover in that situation correct? The way it reads (no benefit unless full cover or concealment) makes it seem that way but I could be wrong.
I didn't see the Treerazer's Bane trait when I was looking around Minoritarian, what book is it in? My two traits right now are Warrior of Old for the improved initiative and Armor Expert to reduce the penalty on my chain shirt but I suppose it won't matter much once I have a Mithral Chain Shirt so maybe I should drop that and pick up Bane.
Thank you all for the replies!
Consider Ranger (Freebooter, Trapper) 2 / Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 as your five levels before Lantern Bearer.
Rangers actually get a pretty damn good spell list. Having access to resist energy at level 1 is fantastic, and Longstrider is a great long-duration buff. Even when multiclassing out of Ranger, because you have all the spells "on your list" you can continue to use wands of CLW and so on.
Yeah, if you want the wands on your list, do:
Ranger (Freebooter) 2 / Fighter (Weapon Master) 3
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Rangers actually get a pretty damn good spell list. Having access to resist energy at level 1 is fantastic, and Longstrider is a great long-duration buff. Even when multiclassing out of Ranger, because you have all the spells "on your list" you can continue to use wands of CLW and so on.
Yea I've definitely come to see the benefit of going Ranger for this type of build. Gotta say I'm pretty darn happy with it though I won't have access to CLW for a long time since I'm going into Lantern Bearer at level 7.
Speaking of levels, why would I want to go Freebooter/Weapon Master Rudy? As it stands now going 6 into Ranger get's me bonus feats one of which I would not normally get until much later on (Improved Precise Shot) which looks to be quite good to have since half the party is melee and since I'll be fighting lots of demons and some aberrations too.
That's fine, but one more thing to consider as an alternate:
Ranger 1 (Freebooter). 1st level feat: Point-Blank Shot.
Fighter 1 (Weapon Master). Fighter Bonus feat: Precise Shot.
Fighter 2. 3rd level feat: Weapon Focus (Longbow). Fighter Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot.
Fighter 3. Weapon Training: Longbow.
Fighter 4. Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (Longbow). 5th level feat: Point Blank Master
This gets you a dip in ranger for the wand use, weapon training with the longbow (which you can later boost with the excellent Gloves of Dueling), it gets you Weapon Specialization.
It also gets you the Point Blank Master feat, which I would argue is far more important than Improved Precise Shot, because it means you never have to switch to a melee weapon, which you'll be terrible with.
Most importantly, I would say, is that it gets you into Lantern Bearer a level earlier.
The Freebooter's Bane is just a nice boost you can use all day long; it's not crucial, but it's better than a single Favored Enemy.
To expand upon that a bit, at 7th level you'd get Manyshot.
At 9th and 11th, I'd recommend Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot respectively, especially since you'll be picking up Elven Accuracy from Lantern Bearer (thus making the concealment issue less important).
But, if you wanted to, you could get your choice of feat at 9th, and Improved Precise Shot at 11th.
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Thanks for explaining further Rudy, I'm still probably stick to Ranger 6 then Lantern Bearer at 7 since I really want the extra utility from Ranger. I will definitely be dropping Imp Precise Shot and picking up Point Blank Master instead at 6 as Ranger feat lets me grab it with Weapon Focus.
I would argue that Favored Enemy is better since by level 6 I get +4 on evil outsiders and then +2 on humans (good for pesky cultists I imagine) and at 8 I will probably get +2 on aberrations. I can then share half that with my party for at least 3 rounds due to my WIS modifier. Plus I get favored terrain and depending on how I play that can add bonuses a good deal of the time.
After that though I had definitely planned on Manyshot at 7 and then into Snap and Imp Snap later as you suggested.
I really appreciate the input though, helped me improve on that feat selection and confirm that I want the ones I've planned out.
If you're going to 6, sure, I can see favored enemy being better. It was for the 1 or 2 levels that Freebooter's bane is better.
I think you'll find Point Blank Master more useful than Improved Precise Shot, and the Ranger 6 / Lantern Bearer will be a very solid build if you go that way.
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Ahhh I see what you mean, I'd agree in that case. It's definitely a nice build and if I didn't have particular things in mind I'd probably go with it.
Much agreed on Point Blank Master, I didn't fully understand it at first but I see what you mean about being able to use my bow in melee and not suffering for it as I'm sure there will be times where I can't avoid it or just want to be in close. Given that I'll pick up Elven Accuracy too it makes even more sense.
I feel really good about the build for this campaign and I am a big fan of the flavor as well so overall I'm very happy with it. Thanks again for your help. :)
One other feat I'll suggest for later down the line is Arcane Strike. It's not at all obvious, which is why I'm pointing it out, but it works with the caster level from your Lantern Bearer, which is equal to your character level. So, if you take it as, say, your 9th level feat, it's adding 2 damage to every attack. At 10th level, it adds 3 damage to every attack, etc.
(If anyone doubts that spell-like abilities work for arcane strike, point them to here.)
I didn't see the Treerazer's Bane trait when I was looking around Minoritarian, what book is it in? My two traits right now are Warrior of Old for the improved initiative and Armor Expert to reduce the penalty on my chain shirt but I suppose it won't matter much once I have a Mithral Chain Shirt so maybe I should drop that and pick up Bane.
Thank you all for the replies!
Hey, sorry I didn't reply sooner - its in Elves of Golarion
here