Alright, I've got an interesting one for you all tonight.
Say I have a Magus that wants to craft an item to give himself both Blur and Mirror Image. But, being rather considerate of his not-infinite wallet (and the headache-inducing effect that it could have on his fellow adventurers whilst not in combat), he decides that instead of having this item function continuously, he wishes to make it use-activated for three times a day, each use lasting for ten rounds. The item will be a cloak, as a similar item (Minor Cloak of Displacement) is in this slot.
So, the questions I have are:
1) Can an item with multiple abilities be set up in the format of
[x + y both in effect, z times/day]?
2) Can you choose to lower the caster level of the spell - for example, the Magus is level 15, but he only really needs 10 rounds of the effect per use, so can he create the item at CL 10?
3) Costing, assuming both of the above are true:
(spell level {2} x caster level {10} x 2000)/(5\3) + [(spell level {2} x caster level {10} x 2000)/(5\3)] x 0.75 = 42,000gp
Each of the abilities individually cost the same as a Minor Cloak of Displacement, with the higher CL being offset by the 3/day limitation on the activation - so that seems about right.
4) Is activating this item a standard or a free action? The rules on this are a little on the vague side.
The big problem, or if you prefer the big bonus, here comes with the answer to your q4.
If it's a standard action to activate it, it means that getting 2 effects for one action is a major bonus and would need to be priced accordingly.
Most magic items with a limited use are command word activated which takes a standard action. If each effect required its own command, and therefore its own standard action, then your item would be fine - although I haven't checked your maths: have you included the 50% extra cost for having a second effect?
Getting the effects as a free action is almost as good as having them work continuously, which makes it a lot more expensive.
Ah - I misread the "multiple different abilities" bit - my math is using the "multiple SIMILAR abilities" (which they are), but it goes on to say "that do NOT take up a slot".
Of course, the "multiple DIFFERENT abilities" does not seem to fit for this either, as it mentions abilities that are wildly different. Which one should be used in this case?
And I agree with the command word to activate - I assumed as much, but man the rules are not very clear on this
You are proposing an item which takes up a slot with 2 effects; the 2nd one costs 50% extra.
That's it.
The guideline for multiple similar abilities only applies to slotless items but has no definition or example of what it would apply to.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Seems like each ability would require its own command word and hence its own action to activate - otherwise you're factoring in a free action without paying any additional cost. I'd love to have a double fireball wand (or magic missile or whatever) that you fire off with a single action... but I don't think I'm going to get it.
I think you might be able to convince a DM that they were "similar" abilities, and price accordingly, but I agree with the others in that you couldn't activate them both with a single word. Your best bet might be to add on a 3/day activated mirror image to a continuous blur effect.
The answer to number 2 is "yes", by the way, as long as the CL is at least at the minimum needed to cast the spell.
Actually I don’t see a problem with them being both activated at the same time, as long as they both always go off at once. With two separate command words you have an item that can use them separately. You could for example use only the blur and not use the mirror image. This means the item can actually be used 6 times a instead of 3. I would only allow this if the effects did not involve an attack. If you want a wand that allows you to throw two fireballs than have the second one be a quickened fireball.
Since both spells are a single effect I would use the most restrictive element of either spell. So if one spell has a duration of 1 round per level, and the other has a duration of 1 minute per level, the effect lasts for 1 round per level.
Really? Would you similarly allow a wand that cast both mirror image and blur at the same time, for merely the cost of two wands?
Really? Would you similarly allow a wand that cast both mirror image and blur at the same time, for merely the cost of two wands?
Now I *really* want that double fireball wand. <g>
Wands are a little bit different because they are casting an actual spell. What I am suggesting is that both spells be treated as a single unit. This they can be dispelled as a single effect and when one ends so does the other. So when the last image is gone the blur effect also disappears. I can see the cost might increase, but I would not have a problem with both effects being triggered by the same action.
There isn't really a pricing guidelines on how to deal with trying to activate multiple things with one command word. As a GM, I simply wouldn't allow it. I would require that you make at least one effect a continuous effect (and priced as such).
I would price the item as a Cloak of Minor Displacement 24,000 gp, plus the cost of casting Mirror Image 3 times per day (plus the cost increase for multiple different abilities and the reduction for uses per day.
So spell level x caster level x 1800 x 1.5 * 3/5. So, 2nd level spell, minimum caster level 3. 9720 gp. This would give you 1d4+1 images usable 3 times per day.
So, a total cost of 33,720 gp. Half that if you craft it yourself.
At Mysterious Stranger: That's fine if you want to allow that as a DM, but entirely ad hoc and completely beyond the purview of the rules. Also, unless you increase the cost dramatically, very, very powerful for the cost.
Using the rules for combining effect words in Words of Power as a basis, a spell effect that simultaneously activates blur and mirror image (both 1 min/level duration) would be the equivalent of a 4th-level spell (as a side note, a double fireball would be 5th-level equivalent). Therefore, a command word activated* slot item useable 3 times per day would have an estimated market price of 4 x 7 x 1,800 gp x 3 / 5 = 30,240 gp. As Claxon shows, there isn't much in the way of savings from just adding 3 uses of mirror image to a regular cloak of minor displacement.
If the effects are activated separately (requiring two actions), then the item would have a market price of (2 x 3 x 1,800 gp x 3 / 5) + (1.5 x (2 x 3 x 1,800 x 3 / 5)) = 6,480 gp + 9,720 gp = 16,200 gp.
*- Note that use activated is something completely different: "Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory." If there is no simple way to "use" the item to activate the effect at a specific time, default to command word activation. Unless the player wants to put on the cloak to activate it, I would not allow use activation.
If you're making a command word activated item presumably you could set the command word yourself. Why can't you just make two different items and set both items to the same command word? It would cost two slots but avoid some headaches, and be cheaper.
I can't recall where it was stated, but I believe a developer specifically stated that doesn't work. If it's a standard action command word to activate, saying the command word only activates one item. This is an intended balancing mechanism to avoid exactly what is being discussed here.
Of course, this would be a bit more expensive for this character to create, as he does not gain access to 2nd-level spells until level 4. Would that effect the creation of the cloak of displacement? RAW seems to indicate that it would not
So, I have figured this cloak, that has a continuous Blur effect that can also be activated three times a day for Mirror Image, will set my intrepid Magus back:
24000 + 2*4*1800*1.5*5/3 = 36000
/2 for self crafting = 30,000gp.This, however, is the cost of only four rounds of Mirror Image. A fifth round would probably be the minimum amount I would want on this however, so this is going to get more expensive. For the ten rounds I was after, it would set me back a whopping 57,000gp!
I'm really not following your maths here. 36000 divided by 2 does not equal 30000.
But overall, it will be quite expensive. And you might want some sort of resistance bonus at some point.
Deleted the last post, my math was THAT BAD
Okay, using the minimum CL for the mirror Image (4th for a Magus), a blurry cloak that allows for 3/day mirror image can be made for for:
(24000 + 2*4*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 18,480gp
This only nets me four rounds of Mirror Image, let's bump that up to five. Five is a nicer number than four, and anything longer is probably a waste.
(24000 + 2*5*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 20,100gp
But, just for completion's sake, how much WOULD the ten rounds of Mirror Image cost on this item?
(24000 + 2*10*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 28,200gp
Not a massive amount more - In fact, it would likely be worth it to simply save for a little longer. A defensive item of this nature is unlikely to be necessary before level ten in the first place, and by then I will be more than capable of affording it.
Deleted the last post, my math was THAT BAD
Okay, using the minimum CL for the mirror Image (4th for a Magus), a blurry cloak that allows for 3/day mirror image can be made for for:
(24000 + 2*4*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 18,480gp
This only nets me four rounds of Mirror Image, let's bump that up to five. Five is a nicer number than four, and anything longer is probably a waste.
(24000 + 2*5*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 20,100gp
But, just for completion's sake, how much WOULD the ten rounds of Mirror Image cost on this item?
(24000 + 2*10*1800*1.5*3/5)/2 = 28,200gp
Not a massive amount more - In fact, it would likely be worth it to simply save for a little longer. A defensive item of this nature is unlikely to be necessary before level ten in the first place, and by then I will be more than capable of affording it.
Im pretty sure if your looking to get both of those spells off in the same round you are going to have to make one of them a quickened spell. I don't see anywhere in your calculation that you are adding a factor for that. In all actuality, both of those buffs simultaneously are a great defense, especially at lower levels. If a person is not going to take the time to cast them in consecutive rounds, they should be paying through the nose to make it happen.
Best scenario I see with RAW in mind is getting one from the item as a standard and another one as a free. Essentially your first round will still be spent buffing.
My two cents.
Ah, I probably was not super clear on that - only the Mirror Image is activated, the Blur is continuous. I didn't make a full set of math to create it, as it already is an item that exists - Cloak of Minor Displacement, 24,000gp.
The closest effect I can remember seeing is Combine Extracts, an alchemist discovery. If you used that precedent an item activating mirror image and blur together would cost the same as one using a 4th level spell (including higher minimum caster level & maybe another requisite). I'm not sure I would allow this in a game I was running, but that'd be my starting place for a cost if I did.
Action economy is priceless in this game.
My biggest concern would be allowing the precedent. So a player slips this through, a couple of decent buffs. Then the same player or another suggests the double fireball wand, heck let's go triple fireball.
Do you say no even though you've allowed it before? Do you allow it because you did before and unbalance the campaign?
The best answer is to say no to custom items designed by players. Save yourself a headache.