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another good idea, if you cant access mage armor (no one in the party? ) take 1 lvl of wizard . the scribe scroll feat will be used both on cleric and wizard spells. although another -1 bab is painfull.
There are better options for the dip than wizard IMO if you want Mage armor. Empyreal sorc is better as your wis is going to be higher than int. Witch will give access you utility hexes such as flight for at will feather fall, water lung, or cauldron. Summoner will give access to a SLA of trap removal.
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without costly and rare and not always able to buy items, monks got the lowest armor after druids.
unless they go dex than they dont do damage at all.
the only non item dependent monk i've seen that can use dex is martial artist, as he gain no DR ability - so at least some goes in, with pirhana strike and pwer att.
but armor class on str based monk (most of them...) is a real issue.
in my game for example, we got 22 point ability buy but items are only found. not created or buying.
so relying on getting the exact item one need is a gamble.
with high str\con, the dex and wis are 14 both at best.
so armor is really low.
i found sohei much better in that area.
Witout item, Monk get the best armor.
A naked monk MOMS/ Quingong at level 4, with 14 in Wis and Dex, will get 20 AC, while fighting with a small -1 to your BAB (or if you play with the book, you get -2 to attack but block one melee attack each round). And the lack of NA necklace is not as bad a some think: his armor bonus already scale as if he had a light armor/ medium armor (at level 4, with those stat, he count like an chain shirt +1) and still get Bracer of Armor. Add the Barkskin and you get a pretty good AC.
MOMS loose in DPR, but I think you can do something worth it with it. With a combo of Crane/Mantis/Monkey you can make Stunning Fist quite good and be a huge helper for other player. Sure, your DPR will be bad, but you will stack status effect on target and be almost invulnerable.
A NPC Vanara monk level 11 that I made go with
CA:30 (+4 against one attack)
13 stunning fist at +13 with a DD22 to get.With true strike, he make his first mantis torment get through to make him staggered, dazzled and then fatigued. And if I'm not mistaking, since Mantis Torment seems to be something else than a Stunning Fist, you could go for Stunning fist to make the target exhausted, jump in his space and get +4 to attack against him and +4 to CA. All that in 3 or 4 rounds, with 3 stunning fist use and 1 or 2 ki points (depends if you go safe with true strike for the stunning fist or not)
I don't think people understand just how dumb high AC gets with crane style maxed out.
Assuming 20 point buy stats look like:
Human Qinggong Monk
STR 14
DEX 15 (+1 @4th)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8
Feats:
level 1) Crane Style; Dodge; Improved Unarmed Strike; Stunning Fist; Improved Initiative
level 2) Combat Reflexes
level 3) Power Attack
level 5) Crane Wing
level 6) Mobility
level 7) Crane Riposte
At 7th level you end up with something like
10 + 3 DEX + 1 Dodge(feat) +5 Dodge (Fighting Defensively) +1(monk) +3 WIS
for a total of 24 AC at 7th level assuming absolutely no magic items (including stat boosters)
If we include stat boosters and other big 6 items that number can easily jump to 28 or higher if the monk decides to use barkskin in place of investing in an amulet of natural armor. Bracers of Armor are also a thing.
Let's also not forget that Crane Wing lets you gain a +4 AC against one attack every round.
Here's one idea with 25 pts build (since the topic here is about it)
Rafiki the monk who grab the lion
(Monk MOMS/ Quigong 10)
Stat:
For: 16 (+1 at level 8) +2 = 19
Dex: 14 +2 = 16
Con: 15 (+1 at level 4)
Wis: 16 + 4 = 20
Int: 10
Cha: 6
HP: 75
CA: 36 =10+3(dex)+7(monk)+1(ring)+3(bracer)+4(crane)+3(bracer of armor)+1(dodge)+4 barkskin
Save: Ref: +12 Vig: +12 Vol: +14
Attack: +2 unarmed (+12/+7)1d10+8
Special attack:
-stunning fist(13/day): +12, Fort DC:22 for stun or fatigued, sickened. +shaken 1d4+str rounds
-Dragon roar, 15 foot cone, Will DC:22, 1d10+8 and 1d4 rds shaken
-Mantis torment: +12, Fort DC: 22 for dazzled, staggered and then fatigued
Special: evasion, maneuver training, still mind, barkskin (1 ki), true strike (1 ki), purity of body, scorching ray (2 ki), improved evasion.
KI:10
Feat:
1: Dodge/ Unarmed strike/ Mantis Style
2: Mantis torment
3: Crane style
5: Dragon style
6: Dragon Ferocity
7: Crane wing
9: Dragon roar
10: Crane ripost
Equipment (62 000):
Amulette of mitghy fist +2, headband of inspiring wisdom +4, belf of physical might +2, bracer of armor +3, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +2
Skill: Acrobatic: +17 Perception: +17 Stealth: +17 Sense motive: +17
The basic here is quite simple: first round, true strike. Then go for mantis torment to start the debuff. After that try to get a Stunning fist (fatigued) get through to make the target exhausted. At this point, it's kind of finish for the fight (shaken+ exhausted hurt a lot). If the monster seems to have too much FORT, go with Dragon roar or scorching ray. Sure, he can't do that all day (many use of ki point and stunning fist) but he will always some kind of untouchable opponent with great save.
For the record: he will hit 45% of the time without buff, he will get hit 15% of the time, succeed 70% of your save and your Stunning fist should pass 45% to 60% of the time. Could be fun to play IMO. But I admit there is probably some way to make it a little bit stronger (Vanara quite suck as a race).
@OP: Yes, monks are still weak in high-stat games. The difference is less extreme than in low-stat games, but it's still there. Sure, with lots of system mastery it's possible to build a monk that is not weak, but it's harder to do than with most other character classes.
Well, the Zen archer is on the ''brain off'' side of the game, and one of the best archer/ DPR out there. And it's quite easy to make a monk with great viability: the AC is easy to boost, and he got good saves. The only area where you need some creativity is in attack/ damage. Is it enough to call it weak? I don't think so (and, as usual, the ''alway ready to fight'' side of the monk is quite forgotten on these boards...)
You could use a blocking weapon to get it to +5, but since monks are not proficient in all monk weapons and none of the weapons they are proficient in are blocking, that is another feat or a multiclass dip.
If you take the Dwarf-specific template "Contemplative Monk" (which gives up stunning fist, wholeness of body, and a bunch of racial traits) you get a free proficiency at level 1 in any Martial Monk Weapon, so you can select Tonfa or the three-section-staff without dipping or spending a proficiency.
Which is not to say that you want to do this, but you can get proficiency with a blocking weapon without a dip or a feat. The only real loss is stunning fist, since Dwarves already make good monks, Wholeness of Body isn't good, and you don't lose Hardy, Darkvision, Slow and Steady, or Stability.
IIRC Tonfa are light weapons so they can be finessed and can take the agile affix, which gives me an idea...
Sure, someone with system mastery will know that Zen Archer is a very effective archetype. My point stands.
But anybody reading the advice forum either has system mastery, or knows where to look for the advice of people who have it (specifically "the advice forum") so who are you trying to convince?
It's just odd to say certain choices are bad for people who don't know what they're doing when you're talking to people who either know what they are doing or are actively taking steps to reach that state.
Generally speaking you're better off only taking Crane Style and using a shield if you really care about AC. Crane Wing provides a (proactive) +4 bonus on one attack, a shield provides a +4 (or higher) bonus against all attacks.
The shield AC will also rapidly improve with your level as you procure better shields, while the Crane Wing bonus is static.
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Generally speaking you're better off only taking Crane Style and using a shield if you really care about AC. Crane Wing provides a (proactive) +4 bonus on one attack, a shield provides a +4 (or higher) bonus against all attacks.
The shield AC will also rapidly improve with your level as you procure better shields, while the Crane Wing bonus is static.
Except a shield will negate your Monk AC bonus and ability to Flurry. That said, I really like Crane Style with a Madu.
Except a shield will negate your Monk AC bonus and ability to Flurry. That said, I really like Crane Style with a Madu.
True. I was talking about Crane Wing in general, not just for monks - probably should have made that clear. :)
Sure, someone with system mastery will know that Zen Archer is a very effective archetype. My point stands.
In that case, you could say ''Gunslinger will be bad if player don't have good gaming mastery, aka know that musketmaster/ pistollero exist. It's not ''system mastery'', it's just looking a little bit in the books. We are far from playing with 3-4 feat to create some combo to make it works...
the main thing i've found for monks so far: accuracy is the king stat. period.
trading out flurry without gaining some other sort of accuracy booster is crippling to the class' already flagging to-hit (dropping them right there next to rogues in the "cant hit nothin' captain" range), making MoMS great for dipping for a quick payoff, but lategame is an uphill struggle to hit things for anyone unfortunate enough to try and pull it off full-progression.
you have to really work the system to make up for the loss at that point, and other folks can use those same things to just keep their lead over you.
5dodge?
its -1 to hit \ +2 (normal)+1(crane)+1(acrobatics) = +4
str of 14? with defence and power att? you will do no damage.
Weapon Finesse is probably also important, forgot that one there.
Question really is, are Agile brass knuckles worth making an entire build based off until DEX/damage becomes viable with the next book?
Tho Monk's are MAD I don't believe based on the games I have ran that they keep up with other class's even in rolling 30ish point buy equivalent. Those archtypes like Zen Archer are always strong, the weak ones stay weak. Really hoping a few new book will fix this but right now my table has gone mostly psionics due to balance being closer and no one feeling useless at any point so far in this campaign.
YMMV
I don't believe based on the games I have ran that they keep up with other class's even in rolling 30ish point buy equivalent.
Does no one in your games ever play a rogue? In my experience it's significantly more difficult to make a rogue viable than a monk viable.
posting a few (largely unfinished) monk builds for posterity.
i made some QA: you have written greater grapple without taking expertise. how? its not on the list of bonus feats for monks...
sorry i didnt reply here--i didnt notice it amongst the other posts.
did you mean greater trip? looking at the swordmonk v2 he does have it before combat expertise (which im surprised isnt a monk feat). i'll do some finagling and squeeze it in somewhere (edit: done, redid the stats accordingly)
main aim was to get the whole engine going by 13th. taking a look back at the build i've gone over it and refitted the feats; moving channel smite WAAAAAY down the build to make room for expertise and grabbed the ki throw line for lategame goodies.
i completely forgot about domain strike. not sure where i can tack it on other than the level 19 feat without displacing a bunch. i'll add it to the sheet at least.