Would this be possible to build? Dump strength, get an Agile Spiked Chain or Elven Curved Blade, pick Two-Handed Weapon Focus to get the Power Attack line without its requisites?
You'd survive the early game through Crossbow/Bow damage thanks to high dex or something.
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Yes, it can be done. You'll always be behind a STR build in damage, but if your group/you are cool with that it's a fun build.
My guy was an Elf. I never got him as far as 6th, but when it comes time to grab that 2nd bonus feat there isn't much that jumps off the page and gets you excited.
Of all the combat styles the 2-handed style is probably the worst in terms of bonus feats.
It's probably a good idea to multi-class. And if you multi-class a Half Elf with Ancestral Arms (Curveblade) is probably a better route on account of the dual favoured class.
Note that Half-Orcs can get free whip proficiency and spike chain martial proficiency so that could be an interesting route to go as well.
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I imagine you could do so with just a 14 in Strength to nab power attack and a little bonus damage before Agile comes on line and still use the archery combat style that the Switch Hitter build needs.
I imagine you could do so with just a 14 in Strength to nab power attack and a little bonus damage before Agile comes on line and still use the archery combat style that the Switch Hitter build needs.
The whole point of going Ranger is eschewing Strength altogether so you can get Power Attack with no prereqs!
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I thought the point of being a Switch Hitter Ranger was that you could get the Archery feats with no prereqs. You're not shooting your bow in close combat, so who needs point blank shot?
Hm, that might be true. Maybe then it's not that great of an idea.
Dump Strength? Enjoy your pitiful Climb and Swim checks. And your horrible carrying weight. It will be a while before you get that Handy Haversack.
You will want some Strength for your Composite Longbow. You don't get Sneak Attack, which makes damage sources for a DEX based ranger even more limited.
You could also test your GM's coolness factor by asking him to implement a second stage of Weapon finesse as a houserule feat.
My group has it as a Bab 14, Dex 17 requirement feat that caps at permitting 5 points of bonus dex damage on melee attacks.
Alright points taken. Thanks everyone!
I recommend going Dervish Dance. That makes you less dependent on an specific enchantment.
Oh, no! I can already hear his rotting steps! That evil wondering undead is on his way to this thread... I know he is!
Yeah, that sounds pretty good! I'd rather use a Spiked Chain for flavor reasons but I dig.
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I recommend going Dervish Dance. That makes you less dependent on an specific enchantment.
Oh, no! I can already hear his rotting steps! That evil wondering undead is on his way to this thread... I know he is!
Hah!
Nah, Dervish Dance is solid in this case.
Though, as Nicos mentions, it does forego adding the two-handed Power Attack damage, which is a really neat thing you can do with this build and something I'd personally be inclined to keep.
Either way works, really.
The Crossbow idea, however, is a trap. Don't do it. even with Str 10, you're spending two Feats for +1 damage per attack. That's an awful trade.
Oh, and if going full-Dex, a one or two level dip in Urban Barbarian may well be worth it for you. Characters who make one stat their everything can always use more of it.
The crossbow does less damage than a composite bow but from 6th level you have the same rate of attack (assuming you take Crossbow Mastery).
And that the longbow-user doesn't take Manyshot. Or Rapid Shot, since that's not on the Ranger's Crossbow Style list.
Really, the biggest issue I see with going the crossbow route is that a finesse/dervish dancing ranger is already going to be feat-starved relative to other switch-hitter builds. Assuming non-human and Dervish Dancing, the first six levels of feats are just about locked into:
1: Weapon Finesse
Ranger 2: Rapid Reload
3: Dervish Dance
5: Quick Draw
Ranger 6: Crossbow Mastery
Meanwhile, the Longbow Archer can pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot for his archery feats, since he doesn't need to sink two feats into actually being able to full attack.
Admittedly, going human would help the feat-starvation a bit, but the longbow archer would benefit from extra feat just as much. Especially since some of the feats the crossbowman would really want, like Rapid Shot, are locked behind prerequisites.
So I guess the true question is whether +1 or 2 to hit (thanks to being less MAD), +6 to Dex (spending most ability increases in it, for +3 dodge AC, +3 to Reflex saves, +3 to Dex-based skills) and +2 to Will (the stat benefited by dumping Strength) is worth 3-4 feats (Finesse, Dervish or Exotic WP and 8k gold for Agile, Point Blank Shot as prereq, something else I might be forgetting), considering it would be about par on damage if going 2H.
Is it?
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For this kind of Dex-based switch hitting, I would think a Zen Archer Monk is better than the Ranger. You can shoot in melee so you don't ever actually need to pull out a melee weapon or use melee feats, and you will have better damage outside of Favored Enemies due to Specialization and the ability to have a higher STR.
WAIT! I got it!
What about using Natural Attacks? Vital Strike is awesome for kiting while ranging and using one big bite attack if any opponent dares get into melee.
Plus, you don't even need Quick Draw and bite attacks are finesseable too! You can shoot arrows at the goons while taking Chomps of Opportunity at the caster.
I'm thinking a Hard Teeth, Guide Ranger X/Feral Gnasher 1, but I need to think of a way to get a 2d6 bite...
Might I second the suggestion of at least 3 levels in Zen Archer and the rest wherever you'd like (even Ranger)?
Zen Archer gets you Wis to hit and with a Guided weapon (RAW allows it to be applied to ranged weapons, check with DM first) you can get Wis to damage as well. This would allow you to forgoe strength for ranged attacks. If you wanted to use Dex as well that could still be a good choice to up your AC further and your saves. Another advantage of this build is the high unarmored AC.
Your melee damage would still suffer until you get an Agile or Guided melee weapon. Piranha Strike would still be a great feat choice.
You also wouldn't need to get natural attacks as you get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. You lose out on flurry of blows in melee but if you are only looking for single melee attacks and always threatening for AoOs then this is the way to go. Or, you know... just use your bow unless it is an AoO.
Plus, if you do go with Ranger your high Wis wont go to waste on spellcasting.
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Note that you get Crossbow mastery with the Crossbow weapon path at 6th level without the need for prerequisites. This gives you the same fire rate as a composite bow without provoking A.o.O. - ONE feat. The rest of your feats are equal to a composite bow, e.g. Rapid Shot. So I don't feel it is a 'trap' but if you folks want to carry on believing that fine.
For a composite bow to be better for damage the user must have 14 strength plus, which on a point buy system means they are likely to have a lower dex, con, etc. Yes, items make it easier to boost damage but you need to boost two stats (Dex and Str) and so are more expensive and by the time they become commonplace you are beginning to have critical feat options available to you.
The Composite Bow is easier to get full attacks in at low levels and the crossbow can require more feats to be good at for a non-ranger yes, but at high levels you can more effective than just DPR because of your critical feats.
That's not true. Crossbow Mastery w/o prerequisites only let's you reload as a free action. You still provoke, unless you have Rapid Reload.
And that only covers reloading. Without Pointblank Master you still provoke when firing. PBM is not on your combat style list.
Speaking of firing, Rapid Shot is not on the Crossbow combat style list. Which means you need Point Blank Shot in order to take it.
At the end of the day it's a shame that Paizo didn't give the Crossbow much love, but c'est la vie.
To the OP: if you go this route I wouldn't dump STR. I'd start with a 13 or 14 and qualify for Power Attack naturally. Consider a build like Treantmonks Switch Hitter but insert Weapon Finesse as your 1st level feat. Your first few levels could look like this;
Elven Ranger 3
1) Weapon Finesse
2) Rapid Shot
3) QuickDraw/power attack
Use a Curveblade and comp. Longbow.