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As I'm understanding it, with the Cartomancer (Witch Archetype),the character's Spell deck becomes her familiar.
Does the Deck make perception checks like other familiars?
Nope.
The Spell Deck class feature says "This ability replaces the witch's familiar." That means you don't get any of the features listed in the Witch Familiar category, unless specifically named.All it does is store spells and deliver touch spells/Deadly Dealer damage.
Worth it IMO.
Even though it would be awesome to have a talking, skill checking deck of cards, that's not what you get.
Thanks for the clarification... I had wondered the very same thing. I assumed this was the case, but you never know. And yes, I believe the benefits definitely outweigh the lose of a normal benefits.
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?
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Thanks for the clarification... I had wondered the very same thing. I assumed this was the case, but you never know. And yes, I believe the benefits definitely outweigh the lose of a normal benefits.
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?
That's a good question. Unfortunately, the "This replaces the witch's familiar" statement seems to confound the 'replacing a familiar' rules too.
So, RAW doesn't really make sense here. I think it's best not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just use the normal rules for replacing a familiar. Strict RAW would be absurdly difficult: 'you have to get it back somehow.'Although, I can see someone arguing that you can't replace it as the Witch's familiar essentially combines a normal familiar (clearly defined replacement costs) and a Wizard's spellbook ('you're screwed if you lose this'). It's kind of unclear.
Fortunately, it is exceptionally unlikely that this will come up during play. A spell deck is very small and isn't going to be running around on its own scouting for the party. Only the most aggressive GMs would rob a Witch of their familiar.
The question is interesting too, when you consider the Deck of Silvering Fate. If you ever wanted to make that your familiar, you would have to do something tough/expensive. It would be really cool though.
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?
I'd follow standard Arcane Bond/Familiar/AC/Mount rules. Wait a week and then pay 200gp x Class Level and bound the replacement in an 8 hour ritual.
*Edit* Disregard this.
If you want the deck to make perception checks, make it an intelligent item. Give it an enchantment (say, +1 unslotted luck bonus to saving throws). Then make it intelligent. There's a lot of cool things you could have it do, not the least of which is keep watch for you while you sleep and make you telepathically if there's trouble.
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Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?I'd follow standard Arcane Bond/Familiar/AC/Mount rules. Wait a week and then pay 200gp x Class Level and bound the replacement in an 8 hour ritual.
A Witch's familiar is replaced 1 day later.
I think that should apply to the Cartomancer too.|
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If you want the deck to make perception checks, make it an intelligent item. Give it an enchantment (say, +1 unslotted luck bonus to saving throws). Then make it intelligent. There's a lot of cool things you could have it do, not the least of which is keep watch for you while you sleep and make you telepathically if there's trouble.
That would be awesome.
Give it a smart-aleck attitude and have it harass the Witch every time they try to use it for a harrowing. Argue over what cards mean what, whether they're reversed, upside down, or across from whatever. It could have totally different opinions about what the harrowing meant and charge the recipient its own fee.Kind of like the old cartoons where Bugs Bunny harasses the magician, gives away all the tricks, and makes him mess things up on stage.
If you want the deck to make perception checks, make it an intelligent item. Give it an enchantment (say, +1 unslotted luck bonus to saving throws). Then make it intelligent. There's a lot of cool things you could have it do, not the least of which is keep watch for you while you sleep and make you telepathically if there's trouble.That would be awesome.
Give it a smart-aleck attitude and have it harass the Witch every time they try to use it for a harrowing. Argue over what cards mean what, whether they're reversed, upside down, or across from whatever. It could have totally different opinions about what the harrowing meant and charge the recipient its own fee.Kind of like the old cartoons where Bugs Bunny harasses the magician, gives away all the tricks, and makes him mess things up on stage.
"What? I'm a Harrow deck. Get used to it, bub."
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?I'd follow standard Arcane Bond/Familiar/AC/Mount rules. Wait a week and then pay 200gp x Class Level and bound the replacement in an 8 hour ritual.A Witch's familiar is replaced 1 day later.
I think that should apply to the Cartomancer too.
Ah my mistake, never noticed Witches had a 1 day later and 500gp x Class Level instead of the standard variations. Scarred Witch Doctors sets a precedent for handling their non-familiar features the same way as replacing a normal familiar. Though it can't be applied univerisally due to Bonded Witches, but they flat out form an Arcane Bond instead of replacing familiars.
Speaking of Bonded Witch Doctors with Scars, this reminds me of a previous topic of debate with those 2 archetypes. Chiefly, is it possible to add spells learned from scrolls to a Spell Deck? Normally Witches would feed the scroll to their familiar and Magus/Wizards would write them down in a book.
Or have it always speak in Magic Eight Ball answers. :)
The question is interesting too, when you consider the Deck of Silvering Fate. If you ever wanted to make that your familiar, you would have to do something tough/expensive. It would be really cool though.Thanks for the clarification... I had wondered the very same thing. I assumed this was the case, but you never know. And yes, I believe the benefits definitely outweigh the lose of a normal benefits.
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?
This is exactly what I was thinking of in reference to this situation. Great minds think alike, no?
I'd agree that it would follow the standard Witch familiar replacement. You'd just lose all your extra spells learned beyond leveling and bonus from Patron. (Which could REALLY suck.)
*EDIT*
I love the concept of the intelligent Harrow Deck... This has just given me an idea... *Mine is an evil laugh!*
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The question is interesting too, when you consider the Deck of Silvering Fate. If you ever wanted to make that your familiar, you would have to do something tough/expensive. It would be really cool though.Thanks for the clarification... I had wondered the very same thing. I assumed this was the case, but you never know. And yes, I believe the benefits definitely outweigh the lose of a normal benefits.
Now here is the big question... how does a Cartomancer obtain a new Spell Deck if their previous is lost or destroyed? Would this follow along the normal obtaining a new witch familiar rules?
This is exactly what I was thinking of in reference to this situation. Great minds think alike, no?
I'd agree that it would follow the standard Witch familiar replacement. You'd just lose all your extra spells learned beyond leveling and bonus from Patron. (Which could REALLY suck.)
Indeed.
It seems that it would work that way. Would be painful, but I think the expense would be worth it. Bonus Patron spells should automatically be added to the spell deck as soon as it's replaced.
@Rawrsong: That issue was discussed in this thread. There were some really good ideas in there for how this should work. I don't think there's a rules conflict, but a super-strict RAW reading would prohibit it, which is silly.
@Wrong John: If only the deck could hold a carrot.
@Wrong John: If only the deck could hold a carrot.
Eh, what's up, doc?
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Okay, no skill checks... no problem. An intelligent Harrow deck would be fun... and I just finished reading Liar's Blade :)
I think my Cartomancer will have a pet though, just to add to my characters theme of misdirection.
My Fey Sorcerer in our Kingmaker campaign had a rabbit 'familiar' that he kept for at least levels 2 through 5. It only cost me 2sp in the market. He tried to convince everyone that it was magical and consulted it on every decision. It was a lot of fun.
The rabbit did a great job of explaining away my consistently low perception checks and Initiative rolls.
"I was talking to my rabbit! What do you want from me?"
That's a good question. Unfortunately, the "This replaces the witch's familiar" statement seems to confound the 'replacing a familiar' rules too.
So, RAW doesn't really make sense here. I think it's best not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just use the normal rules for replacing a familiar. Strict RAW would be absurdly difficult: 'you have to get it back somehow.'Although, I can see someone arguing that you can't replace it as the Witch's familiar essentially combines a normal familiar (clearly defined replacement costs) and a Wizard's spellbook ('you're screwed if you lose this'). It's kind of unclear.
Fortunately, it is exceptionally unlikely that this will come up during play. A spell deck is very small and isn't going to be running around on its own scouting for the party. Only the most aggressive GMs would rob a Witch of their familiar.
The question is interesting too, when you consider the Deck of Silvering Fate. If you ever wanted to make that your familiar, you would have to do something tough/expensive. It would be really cool though.
What about Improved Familiar?
My Fey Sorcerer in our Kingmaker campaign had a rabbit 'familiar' that he kept for at least levels 2 through 5. It only cost me 2sp in the market. He tried to convince everyone that it was magical and consulted it on every decision. It was a lot of fun.
The rabbit did a great job of explaining away my consistently low perception checks and Initiative rolls.
"I was talking to my rabbit! What do you want from me?"
I plan on doing something like this also. Handle Animal + "pets" to make them appear magical. Ventriloquism should also help.
If only the deck could hold a carrot.
Cue the intelligent item. Give it the ability to manipulate stuff, and it can manipulate a carrot.
/cevah
Hmmmm... Improved Familiar would be a good option for going that route, Cevah.
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Hmmmm... Improved Familiar would be a good option for going that route, Cevah.
I think this is the way to go. Be careful though. It's definitely homebrew and would not work RAW. Spell Deck is not technically a familiar.
There are rules available for making intelligent items.
I suggest you make sure that whatever abilities you come up with for it are in-line with other creatures on the Improved Familiar list.
I recommend: at will prestidigitation, at will mage hand, and a slow fly speed.
Maybe it could perform a Harrowing (as the spell) 1/day?
The ability to shuffle itself would be an obviously important natural ability.
I know no one mentioned this before hand, but couldn't the cards be considered like a wizard's bonded item, instead of getting absolutely nothing from them? They are an inanimate object that the witch must keep with her to cast spells. Why wouldn't they use the bonded item list instead of the familiar list? Or has anyone found an official update for it?
I just started playing one and it seems odd that they would get nothing for it... or should the cards be intelligent, able to talk(at the appropriate level), make perception checks, help manufacture magic items, have skill ranks... all the things an actual familiar can do.
No answers?
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The spell deck text perhaps doesn't have enough explication (mea culpa). Yes, the unmodified spell deck is an unintelligent, inanimate object. It doesn't give bonus spells like a bonded object, but it does things with Deadly Dealer which is differently good. It doesn't have the benefits of a living creature, but it doesn't have the weaknesses of a living creature. You'll have to decided whether that's a trade you want to make.
Adding spells to the spell deck and replacing the spell deck should work the same mechanically, but I recommend changing the flavor. This thread has some good suggestions. Replacing it may involving returning to Varisia and acquiring a family heirloom deck of sufficient value.
(Of course, I speak only as the writer, and not for Paizo, so nothing I have to say is official until they decide to print it.)
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Agree 100% with David.
Thanks for writing/contributing this feature. It's awesome.
I just started playing one and it seems odd that they would get nothing for it... or should the cards be intelligent, able to talk(at the appropriate level), make perception checks, help manufacture magic items, have skill ranks... all the things an actual familiar can do.
Uhhhh... you do get something for it. You get the ability to cast ALL of your Range: Touch spells at 30'+
That is certainly a lot more than nothing.I think the idea of an intelligent spell deck is awesome. (See above posts by all of the contributors to this thread). However, that's definitely homebrew territory.
The spell deck class feature is very, very powerful as-is, considering how many of the spells on the Witch list are Range: Touch.
There's no update because it doesn't need an update.
Much like a familiar, you don't need the spell deck in hand to cast spells. You do need it to prepare spells though.