|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
A human wizard can have a level of the Bloodmage prestige class at 2 HD (any race in PFS) and by 5 HD one can have up to 4 prestige class levels. At 5 HD, with 5 ranks in knowledge arcana and one level of draconic sorcerer, 3 Bloodmage levels can be retrained into another prestige class like Draconic Disciple? Right?
When retraining a prestige class into another, does your hd or skill rank attribution change?
Are hp from constitution, skill ranks from intelligence affected by your class?
Essentially, this is about skill ranks as the limiting factor to prestige class acquisition.
|
1st: there is no such thing as a "bloodmage" or "draconic disciple".
2nd: you can't use levels in a Prestige Class to qualify for itself.
3rd: you are required to have 5 skill ranks first, then at 6 HD you can start taking levels in Dragon Disciple.
I fail to see why having levels in Bloatmage matters for this to work.
A human wizard can get Spell Focus and Bloodmage Initate at level 1, however, he cannot cast 3rd level spells. An aasimar or tiefling (for example) can get 3rd level spells through SLAs, but can't get both feats at level 1. So, no, you cannot take Bloodmage at level 2. At minimum, you can get into it at level 3.
Retraining a class (any class) you lose all the benefits of that class (including the HD and skill ranks) and gain all the benefits of the new class (including HD and skill ranks).
HP from CON would not be affected, unless changing class changed your CON. Same with skills and INT.
@Nefreet: Bloodmage is a prestige class from Pathfinder Chronicles: City of Strangers according to the PFSRD.
|
|
@Nefreet: Bloodmage is a prestige class from Pathfinder Chronicles: City of Strangers according to the PFSRD.
Exactly. According to a 3rd party site, that is required to change certain names (like "Bloatmage") in order to avoid copyright infringement.
|
|
you cannot take Bloodmage at level 2. At minimum, you can get into it at level 3.
There are a few ways you can start Bloatmage at level 2.
In PFS, since crafting is banned, Wizards get Spell Focus as a bonus feat in place of Scribe Scroll, freeing up your ability to take Bloatmage Initiate at level 1.
Both Aasimar and Divination Specialist Wizards have access to a 3rd level SLA, which meets the other requirement.
|
|
Essentially look at a level 5 character with 5 levels in a class that gives HD and therefore hit points and skill points. Consequently, one can have 5 skill ranks in knowledge arcana and qualify in any other way for the Dragon Disciple.
According to the retraining rules one can then retrain a class into another class. "When you use retraining to replace some aspect of your character, you must meet all prerequisites, requirements, and considerations for whatever you're trying to acquire." You find a dragon that is willing to teach and you learn under them. As long as you meet these requirements, considerations, and prerequisites (3x) you can take levels in that class, which is the retraining in question.
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.
Key word here is immediately, there is no time when you are hanging at 4 HD. Even if we are to say that you are, at 6 HD, that would never be the case as you can only retrain a level at a time. So the limiting factor that can limit early prestige class acquisition, skill ranks, can be avoided by retraining an early attained prestige class into a later obtained prestige class as long as all other requirements have been met. Think of it as coming of age and being able to retrain what you know because you now "know" more. Much the same way as a ninja can retrain a level one feat into extra ki with 2 ninja class levels.
The ban on base class into a prestige class still stays unaffected. You stay being early entry into a prestige class, and "early entry" into some prestige classes that have a specific HD requirement. As in using your HD to qualify for the class, not the class itself.
I'd be shocked at the amount twisting of words to get to desired result, if I wasn't a regular of these boards...
Seriously, no. I know they say base class, but if you actually read the whole thing the intent is extremely clear in the FAQ. They even had a specific update that negate this attempted chicanery.
Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
The second you start using your prestige class to meet requirements of the prestige class you violate this part of the FAQ.
|
|
Vincent, I realize you may not have been a part of the lengthy discussions about retraining when Ultimate Campaign was released, but suffice it to say that there are no "loopholes" for what you are trying to do. You cannot use levels in a Prestige Class to qualify for itself.
You can parse words in a sentence however you want, but the intention has been made clear.
|
|
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h
Can you quote what you mean for me, please? A character's HD and the levels you have in a class are two totally different things. Class features that you no longer would have were you not to qualify don't include your HD since that is not in any way associated with any class, but rather your experience.
I don't mean that you don't have to have the ability to cast lvl 1 arcane spells spontaneously or any other requirement of the prestige class. I mean that 4 levels of "any" and all classes would satisfy the 5 HD necessary to meet the Rank requirement. I cannot see anything in the FAQ that does not permit the retraining of 4 levels of Bloatmage into 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. Please, elaborate.
You have to have 5 Ranks in Kn(arcana) before you can take Dragon Disciple, which means you must have 5 levels in some class completely and 100% independent from your Dragon Disciple levels. Period. Your HD is not independent from your class levels, but a feature of you class levels. You can see this since you will actually change what you HD are when you change classes.
Dems the Rules
|
|
HD= Racial Hit Die + Class Levels.
This is the sum of your Character Level.
Where did you get that from? http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html
"Character level is the sum of all of the levels possessed by a character in all of his classes.""As a creature gains levels, it gains additional Hit Dice." The word level is divided into 3 types, character, spell or class level. As you retrain class levels, your character level stays the same, as does your HD.Hit Dice also appears in the BAB description, the Monster description (which says that pc don't have racial hit dice since they are not monsters), the Skill description, and the Feat description.
Why is it OK that a the Bloatmage prestige class can be taken at level 2 and not the Dragon Disciple if all the requirements are met? How is one overpowered and the other one not?
|
|
1 Wiz, 1 Sorc, 3 Bloatmage, 1 DD retraining Bloatmage into DD. If your HD is 5 during the training, what makes your hd 4 after the training? Simply because you retrained into a class which you already possess does not seem like a valid reason.
If you have 1 wiz, 1 sorc, 3 bloatmage, and 4 DD all is good, but after you retrain a bloatmage class level into a DD you lose 5 levels of DD and 5 HD? I don't get it.
Vincent read this FAQ:
Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
What you are suggesting is ways to subvert this FAQ, and provided this is for PFS then it absolutely will not work. You can argue about it all you want, but you are wrong. And your understanding about how HD and skills function is flawed as well.
You must have 5 ranks in knowledge arcana before you can take levels of dragon disciple. Dragon disciple levels cannot be used to qualify for itself nor can anything gained from those level. You must have 5 levels that are not dragon disciple and put 5 ranks (you require 5 hd to be able to have 5 ranks in skill) in knowledge arcana in order to qualify. There is no way around this. You can try to argue all you want, but if you show up to PFS with this they will tell you your character is invalid and you wont be able to play it.
|
|
I am reading this and I see base class talk everywhere as well as the line "if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class" in that case yes, but if that is false then you can use the levels in a prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself). The question is not weather you can when you can't, but rather can you? If I have 9 HD and 9 skill ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) I should be able to have any 4 levels qualify me for the prestige class. What you are trying to say is that HD exists only as part of a class granted what?(ability/feature) What is HD as part of a class? "Hit Dice represent a creature's general level of power and SKILL. As a creature gains levels, it gains additional Hit Dice.""As a creature gains Hit Dice, it also gains additional skill ranks that can be added to its skills."
BAB IS a class feature and connected to the class level. The same way saves are. The only thing of question is if HD is part of a class LEVEL related or is character LEVEL related?
12 Intellect would generate 5 Skill ranks regardless of class at any 5 HD, the class has no control at all over these 5 skills ranks. "As a creature gains LEVELS, it gains additional Hit Dice" This is all that needs to be explained!!! As there are 3 types of levels, you can be thinking of class LEVELS where I can be thinking of character LEVELS. This is a valid argument.
What you are skipping is this:
Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
The second you have fewer than 5 levels of classes NOT Dragon Disciple, you lose the ability to have 5 ranks in a skill to qualify for the prestige class.
You can NOT use anything gained by having a level of Dragon Disciple to meet the minimum prerequisite.
EDIT: And part of what you are trying to use is a level/HD to increase your max ranks ability.
|
|
What you are skipping is this:
Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
The second you have fewer than 5 levels of classes NOT Dragon Disciple, you lose the ability to have 5 ranks in a skill to qualify for the prestige class.
You can NOT use anything gained by having a level of Dragon Disciple to meet the minimum prerequisite.
EDIT: And part of what you are trying to use is a level/HD to increase your max ranks ability.
Yes, I didn't understand that. What is a rule element?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Essentially look at a level 5 character with 5 levels in a class that gives HD and therefore hit points and skill points.
You can't retrain your way into this.
If you don't have the pre-reqs for a PrC from other class levels after retraining, then you have an invalid character. Essentially you can't play that guy until you meet your pre-reqs.
This is a valid argument.
What is a rule element?
The 6th level Hellknight at level 6 thread is why we have this FAQ, and the people in that thread twisting logic like you is why they updated the FAQ multiple times.
A rule element is class features, Hit Dice, BAB, saves, etc.
To be blunt, there is absolutely no way to do what you want, period.
|
|
Vincent, click here ==> Can retraining be used to make a character that could NOT be built from the ground up?
This was one of the first threads addressing Prestige Class retraining when Ultimate Campaign was released. Ironically your Dragon Disciple example was used in the very first post.