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How exactly does this work? After 24 hours the bonus is considered permanent and I can assign skill points (and keep note of the ones gained in case the stat points are lost). But then what happens if I take it off, then put it back on? Are there rules determining what skill points I have to put points back in to? Do I have to put the skill points back into what they were previously or just reassign them?
One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
Correct. For example, here is a Headband of Intellect:
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
*innocently suggests an Item of Int+2 with Linguistics as its bonus skill*
*runs for cover*
One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
*innocently suggests an Item of Int+2 with Linguistics as its bonus skill*
*runs for cover*
Your DM might decide "Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language." allows him to forbid the gain of extra languages... as you aren't 'putting' a rank into it when you wear the headband, you are just gaining ranks...
But honestly, I wouldn't make that call (and i'm not trying to say it's how you should adjudicate it either). Nothing wrong with a bunch of extra languages. Hell, comprehend languages is already available at this level anyway.
One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
*innocently suggests an Item of Int+2 with Linguistics as its bonus skill*
*runs for cover*
I've seen that done. It was hilarious watching the player discover the new language he got each time he levelled.
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One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
*innocently suggests an Item of Int+2 with Linguistics as its bonus skill*
*runs for cover*
Works just fine, as far as I've seen.
Unfortunately due to sloppy writing, a headband of intellect +2 actually provides you with 2 * level additional ranks, because it is granting a bonus to Int that will be considered permanent in 24 hours - which clearly noted that you gain skill points for doing so - while also having an additional descriptive benefit of granting skill points.
Contrast the Ioun stone that grants +2 Int, which does not grant the additional skill ranks, only the ranks gained from increasing your Int as per the rules for increasing your score.
It's really sloppy.
EDIT: Additionally, there's nothing to stop you from benefiting from the +ranks effect of the headband of intellect +2 multiple times. While the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they still provide associated skill ranks. At the cost of 6,000 gp (50% increase) you can get the effect on an item in addition to the normal effect.
That's just as it's written. Again, just sloppiness.
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Unfortunately due to sloppy writing, a headband of intellect +2 actually provides you with 2 * level additional ranks, because it is granting a bonus to Int that will be considered permanent in 24 hours - which clearly noted that you gain skill points for doing so - while also having an additional descriptive benefit of granting skill points.
Contrast the Ioun stone that grants +2 Int, which does not grant the additional skill ranks, only the ranks gained from increasing your Int as per the rules for increasing your score.
It's really sloppy.
EDIT: Additionally, there's nothing to stop you from benefiting from the +ranks effect of the headband of intellect +2 multiple times. While the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they still provide associated skill ranks. At the cost of 6,000 gp (50% increase) you can get the effect on an item in addition to the normal effect.
That's just as it's written. Again, just sloppiness.
And this is what happens when you read too far into text and don't look at the "big picture".
And this is what happens when you read too far into text and don't look at the "big picture".Unfortunately due to sloppy writing, a headband of intellect +2 actually provides you with 2 * level additional ranks, because it is granting a bonus to Int that will be considered permanent in 24 hours - which clearly noted that you gain skill points for doing so - while also having an additional descriptive benefit of granting skill points.
Contrast the Ioun stone that grants +2 Int, which does not grant the additional skill ranks, only the ranks gained from increasing your Int as per the rules for increasing your score.
It's really sloppy.
EDIT: Additionally, there's nothing to stop you from benefiting from the +ranks effect of the headband of intellect +2 multiple times. While the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they still provide associated skill ranks. At the cost of 6,000 gp (50% increase) you can get the effect on an item in addition to the normal effect.
That's just as it's written. Again, just sloppiness.
And this is what happens when you're sloppy. You end up with rules that don't work with your intentions. We clearly have rules that say that effects that give +X Int that are persist grant you all the benefits of increasing your Int.
Rules that say you get +1 skill point / level for a higher Int.
Another rule that says with this specific magic item you get not only +2 Int, but it also grants 1 rank / level in a specific skill.
The latter, presumably, was done hoping that you wouldn't be able to exploit the rules. Instead it made an exploit. Apparently some designer(s) were concerned that you could use magic items and downtime to re-arrange a few skill points, and instead of fixing the CORE of the issue, that is making a specific exception for Int and a method of handling it, they tacked on another thing entirely to a magic item and just decided to hope nobody would notice.
Except, it doesn't work that way. They didn't fix the problem, they worsened it. That should be a good lesson to all of us for our homebrew or more professional mechanics that we will add to our games.
Actually, and what's even funnier, is that it doesn't even prevent players from doing anything even if the magic items don't work like that. You'd have to spend at least 2 days in downtime to re-arrange some skill points with a +X Int magic item (24 hours to de-activate it and lose skill points, and another 24 hours to re-activate it to gain skill points).
Of course, now you can retrain an entire class level in 7 days and all the skill points that go with it. Or you can spend 5 days and retrain your Int bonus in skill points (hint, those people with headbands of Intellect are probably going to be able to retrain a lot more skill ranks than everybody else).
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9og7
Before people complain about Nefreet not giving a source (because I know they would).
You're probably one of the types that doesn't listen to Designer input, either, right? Because this has been clarified before. Multiple times. The only reason it keeps coming up is because people are steadfast in their pedantry until the actual text is reprinted.
I'm someone who's a little OCD when it comes to rules and mechanics. I said it's sloppy, and it is. You're free to house rule it, but the rules are the rules. I house rule it. Headbands of Intellect only provide +X Int in my games, not extra magical skill ranks. It's consistent, it works.
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So... no one checked the FAQ?
That doesn't apply. Ashiel is one of those types that believes you could wear multiple "+2 Int" items and gain multiple skills, despite your Intelligence only increasing by 2.
Maybe they need a new FAQ for the Ioun stone. It has no special restrictions. You can still just get and lose ranks with an ioun stone. Of course, the FAQ contradicts itself and often the rules, so that makes it a questionable source. PRD all the way.
So... no one checked the FAQ?That doesn't apply. Ashiel is one of those types that believes you could wear multiple "+2 Int" items and gain multiple skills, despite your Intelligence only increasing by 2.
Actually, not quite. Multiple +2 enhancement items wouldn't stack. Tacking on lots of ioun stones do nothing to provide more skill points beyond what the +2 already grants by raising your Int.
Headbands of Intellect have specific mechanics in addition to providing a +2 enhancement bonus to Int.
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
This is above and beyond the normal rules for a +2 Int increase.
You could remove everything after "This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." and everything would work fine. No more getting lots of skill points from the headbands.
Maybe they need a new FAQ for the Ioun stone. It has no special restrictions. You can still just get and lose ranks with an ioun stone. Of course, the FAQ contradicts itself and often the rules, so that makes it a questionable source. PRD all the way.
:: blinks ::
Sometimes contradicting itself is a lot different than frequently. (it does sometimes contradict).
Clarifying the intent of the rules is a lot different than contradicting. (this is what all FAQ entries are intended to do, and generally do without any problem).
Isn't it a bit odd to complain about sloppy writing, then when it's clarified in the FAQ to complain that the FAQ doesn't apply/can't be trusted/(insert any other reason to not be happy about the state of things)?
:: walks away bemused ::
You could remove everything after "This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." and everything would work fine. No more getting lots of skill points from the headbands.
So what exactly are you trying to say? The original writing was not worded as accurately as you would have liked?
Ok, fine. But it has been clarified in the FAQ, so why are you still arguing it?
Maybe they need a new FAQ for the Ioun stone. It has no special restrictions. You can still just get and lose ranks with an ioun stone. Of course, the FAQ contradicts itself and often the rules, so that makes it a questionable source. PRD all the way.:: blinks ::
Sometimes contradicting itself is a lot different than frequently. (it does sometimes contradict).
I didn't say frequently. I said contradicts itself and often the rules.
Clarifying the intent of the rules is a lot different than contradicting. (this is what all FAQ entries are intended to do, and generally do without any problem).
That's right, but sometimes they strait up contradict.
Isn't it a bit odd to complain about sloppy writing, then when it's clarified in the FAQ to complain that the FAQ doesn't apply/can't be trusted/(insert any other reason to not be happy about the state of things)?
:: walks away bemused ::
Nope. Not really. It's still sloppy writing, and in some cases the FAQ doesn't mesh with the rules as they are written. If the FAQ cannot be trusted to be consistent, then it devalues it as a source.
It's kind of like trusting that guy that you know lies sometimes, but not all the time.
You could remove everything after "This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." and everything would work fine. No more getting lots of skill points from the headbands.
So what exactly are you trying to say? The original writing was not worded as accurately as you would have liked?
Ok, fine. But it has been clarified in the FAQ, so why are you still arguing it?
Only part of it for one. Also, I wasn't complaining. I was making an observation. There's a difference.
How only part of it?
Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence.
I am not trying to be snarky, I am just at a loss in how that is not clear.
How only part of it?
Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence.
I am not trying to be snarky, I am just at a loss in how that is not clear.
Because other permanent +Int effects aren't affected by that. Wear an Ioun stone? BAM, X new skill points after 24 hours, no special rules associated. Or strange fluids providing a +6 enhancement bonus to Int for 2d4 days, etc.
Well, ok…but that’s an Ioun stone.
Remember, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the rules are first general that covers all (like in your argument) unless there is something specific that overrides it.
The FAQ for the Headband of Vast Intelligence would be the specific that overrides the general rule on how skill points are affected when increasing INT.
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Well, ok…but that’s an Ioun stone.
Remember, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the rules are first general that covers all (like in your argument) unless there is something specific that overrides it.
The FAQ for the Headband of Vast Intelligence would be the specific that overrides the general rule on how skill points are affected when increasing INT.
Yeah, but only specific to the headband itself, making the entire point moot. :\
This is why I said it was sloppy. It was a "fix" for something that wasn't a problem, is still a "problem" elsewhere, and they even then made it a fairly simply process to re-write skill points with headbands of Intellect anyway.
O_o
You appear confused. That FAQ entry doesn't answer the issue. :P
Actually it does. All +Int items are supposed to add skill ranks like the Headband does, meaning a specific skill chosen (by the creator or the GM) at creation gets those skill ranks (not able to be modified after creation). How does this and the Headband FAQ not answer this question?
Ashiel knows intent. The point is that it is not explicitly stated.
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One skill is assigned to the item when it is created, and should be notated on your sheet somewhere. You don't get to pick new skills each time you take it off and put it back on.
Same for the bonus language it grants.
*innocently suggests an Item of Int+2 with Linguistics as its bonus skill*
*runs for cover*
A headband give extra languages for the increased intelligence. They are already set in the headband.
It would work the same way for the linguistic skill. The headband would contain 20 pre set languages and you would acquire one of them every time your level increase.Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?
Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
Unfortunately due to sloppy writing, a headband of intellect +2 actually provides you with 2 * level additional ranks, because it is granting a bonus to Int that will be considered permanent in 24 hours - which clearly noted that you gain skill points for doing so - while also having an additional descriptive benefit of granting skill points.
Contrast the Ioun stone that grants +2 Int, which does not grant the additional skill ranks, only the ranks gained from increasing your Int as per the rules for increasing your score.
It's really sloppy.
EDIT: Additionally, there's nothing to stop you from benefiting from the +ranks effect of the headband of intellect +2 multiple times. While the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they still provide associated skill ranks. At the cost of 6,000 gp (50% increase) you can get the effect on an item in addition to the normal effect.
That's just as it's written. Again, just sloppiness.
Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.
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Actually it does. All +Int items are supposed to add skill ranks like the Headband does, meaning a specific skill chosen (by the creator or the GM) at creation gets those skill ranks (not able to be modified after creation). How does this and the Headband FAQ not answer this question?Ashiel knows intent. The point is that it is not explicitly stated.
For the ioun stones it was explicitly stated in one of the softcover about the Pathfinders, if I recall correctly.
Not a hardbound so that information isn't readily available or present in the PDR. UE would have been the ideal supplement to explain that in a hardbound.
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The answer is implied in the headband FAQ, though. "Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks)." Between that and common sense there's not really a case to be made.
If Ashiel wishes to complain that the rules are "sloppy" for failing to note that in each instance, fine. It would have been better practice to note it everywhere, of to have a general statement under a "stat increases" section somewhere. But oh well, not a big deal.