Hello, I am new to this site and I thought I'd open with a question I skimmed over many times.
Is Medium Armor worth it?
I am making a Barbarian. Typically speaking the Barbarian is not proficient in Heavy Armor, but that's nothing a Feat can't fix.
My question though is should I do it?
I see a lot of potential for Medium Armor, but I constantly see it being down-graded, and I'm trying to figure out why.
I looked at Ringmail versus Fullplate; Specifically the AC / Dex. I don't need the Spell Failure, and the Movement Speed will be essentially the same so it's not an issue. The ACP also is an issue, but not entirely.
So I look at Ringmail's +4 AC / +4 Dex and Fullplate's +8 AC / +1 Dex.
When I see this, I notice that Fullplate is higher by a single point, but it costs an additional Feat in order to take (Armor Proficiency; Heavy).
However, the benefit would be that during times where I may become Flat-Footed, I only realistically lose -1 AC with Fullplate, granting me a full +8 against those pesky Rogues and such.
Meanwhile, with Ringmail, I see that I'll literally lose half of my total AC. Additionally, I also see that having a Dex of +4 puts me at an Ability Score of 18, in order to take full advantage of it.
This is where I get stuck. It's obviously leaning toward the idea of Fullplate at the cost of that Feat. But here's the thing; Dexterity is very crucial.
At a +4 Modifier, that's +4 to Initiative, and an additional +4 to Reflex Saves - Something the Barbarian could greatly take advantage from seeing as his is on the 0-6 scale.
So on one hand, Fullplate offers more protection at the cost of a Feat, while Ringmail offers potentially only half of the protection, though benefiting Initiative and Reflex.
But something else I must take into consideration is the fact that in order to even get to +18 Dex, I'm going to have to spend vital Ability Points into it - Something which could be far better suited in Strength, Constitution, or even Charisma for Intimidation Checks if I so chose.
So is it better to spend a Feat and get a more-protective armor, or is it better to spend the Ability Points and get more bang for my buck, so to speak?
By the way, we have elected to do the Point-Buy system. I think that's what it's called. The one where you start off with "25 Ability Points" and all six of your Ability Scores are at 08, and instead of rolling 4d6 minus the lowest roll you can merely place as many points as seen fit into each of your six Abilities; Capping out at 18.
Since we are doing this, I've already done the math on what it would look like. My Race is an Uldrath (AEG: Source; Mercenaries - DM okayed multiple sources so long as they are published). With his Modifiers, he has the following:
Strength 08 + 06 = 14
Dexterity 08 - 4 = 04
Constitution 08 + 2 = 10
Intelligence 08 - 2 = 06
Wisdom 08 - N/A = 08
Charisma 08 - 4 = 04
With me potentially bumping them to:
Strength 14 + 4 = 18
Dexterity 04 + 13 = 17
Constitution 10 + 8 = 18
Intelligence 06 + N/A = 06
Wisdom 08 + N/A = 08
Charisma 04 + N/A = 04
As I progress along at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, & 20th Level I would spend +2 in Strength, +1 in Dexterity, and +2 in Constitution giving me 20/18/20 - That's how I'd get the +4 for the full use of the Ringmail's Dex AC.
That's why I am on edge a bit as to whether or not Ringmail is actually worth it. The Dex will spread to Initiative, Reflex, and if I take Combat Reflexes it even allows additional AoOs - An awesome bonus for a Barbarian. But as you can see, I'd literally be spending +13 of my 25 Ability Points just to get to there. Sure, there are other Medium Armors that offer more so of a +5 / +3, making me spend less in Dexterity, but that point still remains. Is it actually worth it? Or should I just opt for the Feat and be done with it?
CAHaugen wrote: My Race is an Uldrath (AEG: Source; Mercenaries...) And just in case anyone looks this brute up, yes I know he is actually Lawful Good whereas the Barbarian specifically states that you must be a Non-Lawful character. The backstory I have for him changes this to Neutral-Good, thereby technically allowing him to be a Barbarian. And yeah, I'm a little set on him even with those wacky Modifiers since he's Large, has Claws, +2 Natural Armor, and is a freaking bear-lion. Nothing better than that. (Actually he's just a super hairy caveman with tusks as stated in the textblock, but bear-lion works just as well, too.)
A lot of it depends on what you're doing. That said, by 20th level, having a +7 or +8 Dexterity modifier isn't that terribly hard. Also, in general, the best armors in the game tend to be medium or light armors. At low-levels, chainmail and breastplates are generally the best bang for the investments of ability scores and money. Barbarians also get Uncanny Dodge which prevents them from being flat-footed (which means you'll never lose your Dex to AC) and they get it early in their careers.
If you have a +2 natural armor, you probably don't need to invest in full plate anyway unless your Dexterity is going to be lowish for most of your career (12 or less), as a breastplate +2 natural armor equates to just as much AC as full plate and you have a higher maximum Dexterity modifier, a lower check penalty, and you get special benefits from your class (such as fast movement) which makes you superior.
Since you're going to have an 18 Dexterity naturally, before magic items or inherent modifiers, you might want to look into a mithral breastplate which is fairly inexpensive and allows a +5 maximum Dexterity bonus and a -1 ACP, and that would support your 18 Dex and up to a +4 enhancement bonus from magic items. Late game, you'll want to look into celestial armor, celestial plate, or mithral celestial plate, depending on what your final Dexterity is at 20th level (after +6 enhancement and +5 inherent).
Sorry if you mentioned this (I couldn't see it in your post), but it's worth keeping in mind you lose your fast movement when in heavy armour as a barbarian.
High dex is good vs. Touch attacks
High armor is good when flat footed
This is imo the important decision. What do you fear the most? Magic, or sneak attack?
Also as stated above, you loose your fast movement when in heavy armor.
For the record, even if going Heavy Armor, you'll probably eventually get Mithral Full Plate and get Fast Movement back.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
And one point: a medium armor may become light easily (mitrhal) and then become your pajamas. No more ''14 AC'' in the wolf attack during the night. You can also gain the same use with Endurance.
Mithral full plate will restore him to 30' move, not 40. To keep 40,he has to stay in the equivalent of light armor. That means his ultimate goal is a mithral BP.
==Aelryinth
I belive one of the barbarian archtype grants heavy armor proficiency. The Armored Hulk in Ultimate Combat should do nicely lots of neat stuff there.
Aelryinth wrote: Mithral full plate will restore him to 30' move, not 40. To keep 40,he has to stay in the equivalent of light armor. That means his ultimate goal is a mithral BP.
==Aelryinth
True. But it'll still get Fast Movement back. :)
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote: Aelryinth wrote: Mithral full plate will restore him to 30' move, not 40. To keep 40,he has to stay in the equivalent of light armor. That means his ultimate goal is a mithral BP.
==Aelryinth
True. But it'll still get Fast Movement back. :) That's how he gets his 30 movement. Without it it would still be 20. You can also run in Mithral Full Plate, which you can't normally do in heavy armor.
LazarX wrote: Deadmanwalking wrote: Aelryinth wrote: Mithral full plate will restore him to 30' move, not 40. To keep 40,he has to stay in the equivalent of light armor. That means his ultimate goal is a mithral BP.
==Aelryinth
True. But it'll still get Fast Movement back. :) That's how he gets his 30 movement. Without it it would still be 20. You can also run in Mithral Full Plate, which you can't normally do in heavy armor. Yep, that's exactly what I was agreeing with.
That natural armor bonus inclines me to say you should stick with light armor unless/until you find a suit of armor such as celestial armor that is "medium, yet light".
But a lot of it depends on your role in the party. Are you generally guarding the ranged-weapon and mage types? Then mobility isn't a huge concern. If you're a charger or flanker by nature, then the high mobility is probably worth the tradeoff (which is usually only a 2- or 3-point difference.) Similarly, the GM's style can have an impact. If your enemies either fight to the death or are never seen again after they run off, mobility's not critical; but if a lot of fights seem to involve somebody running off and fetching reinforcements, you want to be able to outrun them.
You using the Pathfinder rules for point buy? All stats start at a base of 10.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Eirwulf wrote: You using the Pathfinder rules for point buy? All stats start at a base of 10. This is true. If using the official rules, you also can't buy stats down below 7 and stat points aren't 1 for 1. Buying a stat from 10 to 16 costs 10 points, for example. Rules found here...pay particular attention to the table.
Deadmanwalking wrote: Eirwulf wrote: You using the Pathfinder rules for point buy? All stats start at a base of 10. This is true. If using the official rules, you also can't buy stats down below 7 and stat points aren't 1 for 1. Buying a stat from 10 to 16 costs 10 points, for example. Rules found here...pay particular attention to the table. It looks like he didn't buy below 7 but that the (rather extreme) modifiers from the 3rd party race he is using put them that low, but they still should have started at 10.
I also recommend googling a "point buy calculator" if you are using the official point buy system.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Also, if this race has a -4 racial penalty to dexterity, the highest possible initial dexterity is 14.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
-4 Dexterity? Hm. That means that 50% of this race become functionally paralyzed when they reach Venerable age (-6 Dex). Poor things.
For barbarians I rarely go heavy. And I rarely go more than medium on any caster, even partials. Heavy is usually my go to for a pure martial and that's it.
Thanks everyone for the posts. Learned a lot.
Currently taking the Mithral Breastplate idea and exploring more advanced options. I just learned of something called an "Agile Breastplate" which has the following stats;
Agile Breastplate: 400gp / +6 AC / +3 Dex / -4 ACP / 25% ASF / 20'-15' / 25 lbs.
It's from something called Advanced Gear. It's Medium.
With Mithral, it becomes:
+1 Mithral Agile Breastplate: 4,550gp / +6 AC / +5 Dex / 0 ACP / 15% ASF / 30'-30' / 13 lbs.
And, while I'm at it, I can make it Dwarvenforged as well:
+1 Dwarvenforged Mithral Agile Breastplate: 5,450gp / +8 AC / +5 Dex / 0 ACP / 25% ASF / 30'-30' / 13 lbs.
Expanding on this with the Dastana, which is Light Armor, I can make:
+1 Dwarvenforged Dastana : 1,075gp / +3 AC / 0 Dex / 0 ACP / 15% ASF / (No movement penalties) / 05 lbs.
The Dastana won't benefit from either Mithral or Adamantine, since it won't boost Dex (Not like I need the extra Dex), and the DR 1/- that the Adamantine would provide would be meaningless as the Barbarian eventually gets DR 5/-, and from what I've read DR doesn't stack.
To be honest, I am not quite sure if the breastplate would become a +1 or a +2 with it being both Mithral and Dwarvenforged. Similarly, I have no idea if the Dastana would become +1, either.
I say this because in the text, it states;
A special type of armor can be forged by a skilled dwarven armorsmith, similar to masterwork armor.
What this tells me is two things:
1.) It must be a "special type" of armor. Perhaps it must already be Masterwork? Perhaps it must be of a particular material? But nothing states what "special" explicitly means. Therefore, I must assume it is at least more-than-normal; Or Masterwork.
2.) It states that it is similar to masterwork, which tells me that while it is NOT Masterwork, it effectively has stats LIKE Masterwork.
Because of these, it leads me to believe that in order to be Dwarvenforged, you must pay the additional price for something to be created Masterwork, however once that is paid the actual Dwarvenforged isn't. This confuses the heck out of me, because that's like paying for something that is (in stats), but isn't (on paper).
That's why I don't know if the +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate would actually become a +2 Dwarvenforged Mithral Agile Breastplate, or if it would retain the +1. Not that it matters, since the ACP is reduced to 0 as it is, but still. Along with the Dastana, the Dwarvenforged armor costs an additional 900gp. So with the Dastana being a mere 25gp, I would need to fork out 925gp for the set. But referring to 1.), if it must be "special", I may need to fork out an additional +150gp for it to be Masterwork as well.
That's how I interpret it, but I have no idea if this is correct.
All-in-all though, that would total out to +15 AC. +8 AC, +4 Dex, and +3 Shield. I think that's pretty cool. And with the Dastana rather than an actual shield, I can wield my Morningstar in one hand and retain my Shield Bonus, but also have the Off-Hand open for a Claw Attack, or as a Free Action I can lose my Shield Bonus and wield my Morninstar two-handed, gaining those benefits to Damage, Sunder, and Disarm.
Deadmanwalking wrote: This is true. If using the official rules, you also can't buy stats down below 7 and stat points aren't 1 for 1. Buying a stat from 10 to 16 costs 10 points, for example. Rules found here...pay particular attention to the table. Completely skimmed over that. Not sure what I was reading.
Anyway, a quick check of math and I get the following results:
Strength: 10
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10
I can reduce Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma to 07, giving myself +12 more points to spend. We've already agreed this is going to be an Epic Fantasy, so that's in addition to the +25 that I had already been using. We know this because our DM plans on us getting to 25th or so Level. Therefore, I begin with +37 Ability Points.
So now I have the following:
Strength: 10
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 7
Wisdom: 7
Charisma: 7
Keeping in mind that I can not set a single stat under 7, nor above 18, I need to be wary of where I place points. However, reading the rules, it states After all the points are spent, apply any racial modifiers the character might have.
Remembering that my Racial Modifiers are all over the damn place, I need to set up my math so that I benefit from them in the greatest way possible. Starting off with 18 Strength, and gaining my +6 is pretty nifty, but is it really worth spending 17 points? No, in fact it's so not worth spending 17 points that I'd rather only spend 5. So, here's what I'll be spending and where, along with what it becomes before my Racial Modifiers.
Strength: 10 + 5 = 14
Dexterity: 10 + 13 = 17
Constitution: 10 + 17 = 18
Intelligence: 7
Wisdom: 7
Charisma: 7
5 + 13 + 17 is 35. Hot dog! I got two whole points left! Oh boy oh boy what to spend them on! Oh, I know! I could have an Intelligence of 08! Or a Wisdom of 08! Or a Charisma of 08! The choices! -.- Doesn't matter. None offer positive Modifiers anyway, and if I play to my profile, an Uldrath is usually quiet and reserved (Charisma's out), and my Barbarian Class gets 4 + Int (Minimum of 1) Skill Points, so that's a minimum of 5 per Level, so since I won't be getting up to at least an Ability Score of 12, Intelligence is out. That leaves Wisdom. Pepper in some Racial Modifiers...
Strength: 14 + 6
Dexterity: 17 - 4
Constitution: 18 + 2
Intelligence: 7 - 2
Wisdom: 8 N/A
Charisma: 7 - 4
And we get...
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 13
Constitution: 20
Intelligence: 5
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 3
So, ironically, I ended up with [i/]BETTER[i] Strength and Constitution! Too bad my Dexterity sucks butt. But with the total of +5 Ability Points you gain throughout the career of your 20 Levels, I can pool those into Dexterity and end up with;
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 20
Intelligence: 5
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 3
Or, ironically, almost the EXACT SAME THING. One less Intelligence and Charisma, but who cares.
Yeah, that all looks legit.
Though personally, I'd be inclined to go Con 18 (total) and use the 7 points saved to get Int 8 and Wis 11. +2 Skill points per level and +1 Will Saves seems more valuable than +1 HP per level and +1 Fortitude Saves.If willing to drop Dex to 12, you could also boost Str to 21 and get Wis 12 (this'd result in Str 22, Dex 16 at 20th, but seems valid).
Or, heck, you could get Str 22 Con 18, and still afford either Int 6 or Wis 10. Really, with a Con bonus already, burning for a base 18 is less than optimal.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
CAHaugen wrote: and my Barbarian Class gets 4 + Int (Minimum of 1) Skill Points, so that's a minimum of 5 per Level, so since I won't be getting up to at least an Ability Score of 12, Intelligence is out. Actually it is (4 + int) Minimum 1 not 4 (+ int Minimum 1).
So with a 5 int you get (4 - 3) or 1 skill point per level.
Worth noting that if you take Superstitious you are already getting a huge bonus to most of the saves you make, and as the heavy hitter you don't want to necessarily roll higher in initiatives than your casters before they have finished buffing you or laying down an opening volley of spells.
Recent threads in General Discussion
|
