| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think that's a particularly normal rule. If a gamemaster suggested to me that he wouldn't let me use the feat that I paid for before the game started, the conversation might continue as follows:
* "You see a masked figure in the corner of a bar."
* "I walk past him and head to my lab."
* "What? But he's the adventure hook!"
* "The adventure will still be there in three weeks when I finish crafting my equipment."
* "No! The game hasn't started yet."
* (Sigh) "All right, I go talk to him."
* "He says, `Greetings, heroes! I have sought the length --'"
* "Okay, now the game has started. I tell him `no,' leave the bar, and go to my lab."
There are actually rules enabling crafting at character creation in the official Paizo FAQ:
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
So, basically, you can (officially) buy any items you can create at the cost to create them, subject to other limitations of the game master.
I should also point out that:
Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?Yes.
... so if you confine yourself to items that you could craft by taking 10, you don't even have to make rolls or risk spending materials needlessly.
|
I have allowed those with a crafting feat to use that when building higher level characters. It does skew the wealth a little, but it doesn't change the overall power dynamics a whole lot and the players enjoy it, so it's all good. I just have a rule that you cannot craft anything for other players during character creation, either directly or through metagaming and making things you can't use.
I can see ruling it either way though, since wealth by level is really the value of the items they have, not a big wad of cash.
I just have a rule that you cannot craft anything for other players during character creation, either directly or through metagaming and making things you can't use.
The official Pathfinder rule is that crafted items come out of your WBL, not the person you craft them for. I think that's a little more sensible/realistic. If my wizard can craft magic weapons, he could easily crank out a +2 greatsword on the assumption that whoever he adventures with could use a better weapon, but it's his resources he's spending, not his adventuring companion's.
Similarly, it makes a lot of sense for an alchemist to have a gallon jug of enlarge person and another of cure light wounds, one for before the fight and the other for afters.
Exactly. Again, if the GM wants to allow some prehistory for the group, there's nothing wrong with allowing a LITTLE bit of such pre-casting. But such history isn't appropriate, if the setting is that these folks are truly meeting for the first time.
When is it not appropriate for a wizard to say to himself "hey, I'm not going to want to go adventuring by myself, so I should make sure my meatshield is properly equipped?"
Wizards aren't supposed to be stupid....
Does Ezren walk around with a magic sword that he's going to give to the first mercenary he hires? No.... because he's only going to hire someone who already has the ability to defend himself to start with. Not any more than I would buy an electronics kit for a network specialist I'm contracting to wire my shop.... Because if he's any good, he should have the kit already.
Exactly. Again, if the GM wants to allow some prehistory for the group, there's nothing wrong with allowing a LITTLE bit of such pre-casting. But such history isn't appropriate, if the setting is that these folks are truly meeting for the first time.
When is it not appropriate for a wizard to say to himself "hey, I'm not going to want to go adventuring by myself, so I should make sure my meatshield is properly equipped?"
Wizards aren't supposed to be stupid....
That's an idea, certainly. The alternative is that if you want to make sure that you have the best work done, you make sure that your technician has the best equipment he can, even if that means buying it yourself and lending it to him.
I'd be especially sure to do this if it were -- literally -- my life on the line.
It's standard practice in PFS for every character to own her own wand of cure light wounds even if he can't use it, because you don't want to assume that someone has the capacity to heal you, only to learn that they don't. I don't see any difference between "hey, I might want someone to have a wand they can use to save my butt, so I'll buy one" and "hey, I might want someone to have a sword they can use to save my butt, so I'll make one."
|
This is a classic "Ask your GM" question, as there is no rule for it.
Not true. There is a rule for it.
The FAQ that Orfamay linked to explains the way it works.
The second portion of the FAQ that Orfamay did not reproduce gives further clarification:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
As always, GMs are free to modify the rules as they see fit. However, any adjustments a GM makes to the RAW (including official FAQ) are houserules.
Denying a PC with a crafting feat the ability to use that crafting feat as a non-1st level entry unfairly penalizes that character. Likewise, reducing the loot that the party gets according to the Price (not Cost) of the gear that PC possesses unfairly penalizes that PC and the group.The RAW is that crafters get to use their feats and get to count their items as Price, not Cost, which gets factored into the treasure the party will gain during the adventure. If this does not happen, the entire point of taking crafting feats becomes moot.
Sean K Reynolds explained the reasoning behind this idea (which eventually became the FAQ) a loooong time ago on his blog:
Blog Post
If you don't allow a PC with a crafting feat the ability to benefit from that crafting feat, you're also saying that the late-entry Fighter never gained a benefit from the extra HP from his Toughness feat, or extra damage from his Weapon Specialization feat throughout his career. Of course, that isn't true.
The only WBL imbalance that exists with a late-entry new character is the idea that they do not have to spend gp on consumable magic items that have already been consumed during adventuring. That is a real advantage. The Alchemist doesn't have to pay their 300gp for the Cure Moderate Wounds potion they needed after they got hit by the Ogre that one time. They don't even have to pay the 150gp if they brewed it themselves.
You have to take into account that that blog post obviously refers to 3.x D&D where XP costs for crafting are a thing. They aren't in Pathfinder.
Now, for the longest time, I was of a mind that a character starting at a higher level should NOT be allowed to get a discount on gear for having crafting feats.
Two reasons for that:
1)The WBL guidelines are a yardstick for measuring what net worth any given character ought to have at a given level to be able to afford the various magic +Xs and defences that the CR-system assumes them to have.
Allowing someone to ignore these guidelines by virtue of being a caster penalized non-caster classes unfairly.
2)When Magic Marts (TM) are unavailable, the ability to create your own magic items is invaluable. That is your boon for having item creation feats right there.
However, Pathfinder introduced the Master Craftsman feat, thus enabling even non-casters to craft their own gear, if they feel so inclined.
Of course, for most martial characters putting aside a feat and a skill for this purpose is a steep price. But the option is there.
Also, even though the guidelines speak against it, if a PARTY is created at a higher level then one (that is, the people start out knowing one another), then it is perfectly acceptable in my opinion if the other characters make use of the creation feats of their spellcasting companion to get items at a rebate.
So I, personally, am of a mind to either ban pre-game crafting all together, or allow parties to have a shared background and then have ALL party members benefit from pre-game crafting.
|
|
I stand corrected
Hat's off to you, sir. Few posters in the maelstrom of the Rules forum would be this decent.
You have to take into account that that blog post obviously refers to 3.x D&D where XP costs for crafting are a thing. They aren't in Pathfinder.
True, it was a looong time ago. However, that concept was specifically used by SKR to clear this up when Pathfinder was created and when the question kept coming up.
Now, for the longest time, I was of a mind that a character starting at a higher level should NOT be allowed to get a discount on gear for having crafting feats.Two reasons for that:
1)The WBL guidelines are a yardstick for measuring what net worth any given character ought to have at a given level to be able to afford the various magic +Xs and defences that the CR-system assumes them to have.
Allowing someone to ignore these guidelines by virtue of being a caster penalized non-caster classes unfairly.
You assume that casters only craft for themselves, and that a caster with a lot of crafted gear is not in any way useful to other non-caster PCs in the party.
2)When Magic Marts (TM) are unavailable, the ability to create your own magic items is invaluable. That is your boon for having item creation feats right there.
So the intent of all crafting feats is to use them only when items are not available off-the-shelf? This is a huge penalty to all classes.
However, Pathfinder introduced the Master Craftsman feat, thus enabling even non-casters to craft their own gear, if they feel so inclined.Of course, for most martial characters putting aside a feat and a skill for this purpose is a steep price. But the option is there.
It is also a steep price for a caster to put aside a feat for a crafting feat.
Also, even though the guidelines speak against it, if a PARTY is created at a higher level then one (that is, the people start out knowing one another), then it is perfectly acceptable in my opinion if the other characters make use of the creation feats of their spellcasting companion to get items at a rebate.
Here, I agree completely.
However, this fundamentally contradicts the premise of your previous arguments.This is exactly how the system is supposed to work.
We should assume that you mean crafters are only to be punished when they are on their own?
So I, personally, am of a mind to either ban pre-game crafting all together, or allow parties to have a shared background and then have ALL party members benefit from pre-game crafting.
This decision is entirely permissible and is something that any GM can decide to use as a houserule in their game. It is not RAW.
The argument you present is not an argument for banning pre-game crafting. WBL is a guideline, not a formula.
You are in fact arguing against magic crafting feats in general. The effect of crafting feats on the game is the same, it's just more obvious when a new PC does it all at once.
Player skill and party synergy/coordination are much more important and predictive of success than strict adherence to WBL guidelines.
1)The WBL guidelines are a yardstick for measuring what net worth any given character ought to have at a given level to be able to afford the various magic +Xs and defences that the CR-system assumes them to have.Allowing someone to ignore these guidelines by virtue of being a caster penalized non-caster classes unfairly.
Not really. The feats you're spending on crafting abilities are feats that others are spending on direct boosts to character effectiveness. If you can make a magic weapon for half price, that gives you effectively a weapon with roughly one more point of enhancement bonus than you would normally get. If you can make magic armor for half price, again this gives you roughly one more point of enhancement bonus.
I could spend that same feat on Weapon Focus or on Dodge and get roughly the same improvement in combat effectiveness.
|
|
1)The WBL guidelines are a yardstick for measuring what net worth any given character ought to have at a given level to be able to afford the various magic +Xs and defences that the CR-system assumes them to have.Allowing someone to ignore these guidelines by virtue of being a caster penalized non-caster classes unfairly.
Not really. The feats you're spending on crafting abilities are feats that others are spending on direct boosts to character effectiveness. If you can make a magic weapon for half price, that gives you effectively a weapon with roughly one more point of enhancement bonus than you would normally get. If you can make magic armor for half price, again this gives you roughly one more point of enhancement bonus.
I could spend that same feat on Weapon Focus or on Dodge and get roughly the same improvement in combat effectiveness.
Exactly.
Imagine trying to play through 20 levels with a Wizard who took nothing but crafting feats. No metamagic, no Augment Summoning, no Spell Focus, etc.You and the other PCs in the party would have some pretty fancy gear, assuming you had sufficient down time (months and months) to craft everything.
You would also probably want to spend most combats buffing the other PCs and keeping out of the way.
It's true that this would be less pronounced at high-level play due to how strong the Wizard spell list is, but those first 10 levels or so would be a slog.
You assume that casters only craft for themselves, and that a caster with a lot of crafted gear is not in any way useful to other non-caster PCs in the party.So the intent of all crafting feats is to use them only when items are not available off-the-shelf? This is a huge penalty to all classes.
No. The question SOLELY concerns pre-game aquisition of gear. After the game has started, a caster is free to craft away for the whole team. Reread the blog post: Is is specifically called out that all OTHER characters are supposed to pay full price for their stuff.
This rubs me the wrong way because, frankly, casters do not need that kind of advantage. Either EVERYONE benefits from pre-game crafting or NOBODY does. That's what I go with.
And yes, not having custom gear available hurts, as always, the mundanes more then the casters. A DM must be aware of this if he considers letting the dice fall where they may when rolling up random loot. That doesn't change the fact, however, that you still save a lot of gold on equipment when you can get it for half price.
It is also a steep price for a caster to put aside a feat for a crafting feat.
A feat expenditure is a steep price for everyone. What is your problem? That the feat is not benefiting the caster only?
1)The WBL guidelines are a yardstick for measuring what net worth any given character ought to have at a given level...Not really. The feats you're spending on crafting abilities are feats that others are spending on direct boosts to character effectiveness. If you can make a magic weapon for half price, that gives you effectively a weapon with roughly one more point of enhancement bonus than you would normally get. If you can make magic armor for half price, again this gives you roughly one more point of enhancement bonus.
I could spend that same feat on Weapon Focus or on Dodge and get roughly the same improvement in combat effectiveness.
I'l refer ypu to page 400 of the core rulebook, first column, second paragraph. No mention there how the manner gear was acquired has ANY bearing on those numbers.
Also, your examples are skewed. Getting a 50.000 gp +5 weapon for 25.000 gp compared to 18.000 for a +3 and 32.000 for a +4 means you get an extra +3 weapon + change or a Cloak of Resistance +5 out of it.
And let us not get into how often magic items are not about a static bonus to something but about giving people new abilities. As much as a rogue would covet a Headband of Ninjitsu, saving him the Shadow Strike feat tax and everything, with out Magic Marts and no crafting... he is plain out of luck. Sniper Goggles? Wands? At least a Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free.
No, having crafting feats is a HUGE advantage. Therefore I did not see ANY reason to allow pre-game crafting. However, page 106 of the Game Masters Guide starts with clarifying that the DEFAULT assumption is that getting an item is as easy as 'he need only pony up the cash and it's his.'
In other words, without the NEED for crafting to get custom gear, the only real advantage left for crafting is saving money (and getting a leg up on the WBL figures). So there, it would be unfair to deny that advantage to the player pre-game then. But since it would ALSO be unfair to penalize players for not playing casters with crafting feats, let EVERYONE benefit.
And if your game does not go with the default magic availability (Kingmaker anyone?)... well, I think it is only fair to let them save some money. They'll need it. Oh boy, will they need it... o_o
Stop right there.
Compare
Crafting feats net a benefit to a character at the time of creation as determined by a GM or else you've removed the benefit of taking the feat.
to
That's giving everyone benefits for one person having a feat. Effectively mitigating the benefit of taking a craft feat for a caster.
Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that making a feat benefit OTHERS TOO devalues same feat?
I take it, you also rule that the Grater Feint/Impr. Two Weapon Feint feats do not deny Dex to AC for anyone but the feinting character too then? Because apparently, if others benefit from the character's decision to take those feats, he somehow gets robbed?
Is this REALLY what you want to say?
Everyone chooses feats that benefit their own character. The caster took feats that benefit his personal wealth over his personal power. He should receive the benefits of his feats like everyone else.
Fair enough.
Other people shouldn't be receiving the benefits of someone else's feats.
If you are serious about this, I am serious about suggesting that cooperative games are not for you. What a selfish thing to say! 'Nobody can play with my toys but I!'
Besides, where do you draw the line on what constitutes 'others getting the benefits of someone else's feats'? The cleric, who improves his healing abilities, is playing the game wrong if he dares to use his improved healing on others? What about casters who pick any buff spell that has a target other then 'personal' and has the audacity to cast it on others, is he gimping his character and playing the game wrong?
But why stop at feats and spells? Is the rogue, who can safely ignore a trap, because he is confident his high reflex save and Evasion ability make him all but impervious to it, playing the game wrong because he dares to use HIS Disable Device skill to disarm it for the benefit of others?
What about the Fighter who #wastes# his feats on such things as Stand Still and Combat Reflexes, stopping foes from bypassing him and getting to other party members, instead on concentrating on damage and damage alone?
If characters have a back story that includes each other as adventurers together then divide the benefit that the crafter would have received by the number of people they'd be benefitting. Their time would have to be divided equally and time is the largest factor of item crafting. If one craft feat is 25% increase then you divide 25% by x characters and add it to wealth. If more feats maybe it's a 50% increase divided by x characters.
So what now? Either the caster MUST be a selfish prick and hog all the benefits of pre-game crafting for himself OR he MUST be punished for the audacity to share his boon with his fellow players or he is playing the game wrong?!
Again, if that is your attitude, cooperative gaming obviously rubs you the wrong way...
Considering the number of GM's who for whatever reason don't allow crafting AFTER the adventure starts either, this doesn't surprise me.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Lycar
the feat you cited have very specific rules:
Greater Feint Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.Improved Two-Weapon Feint If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
Other feats can benefit other character that don't have them, if you have grater trip and trip someone, he is suffering from the prone condition against all opponents.
BUT they benefit other in a indirect way, allowing the other characters to benefit from the effects of the feat, not to benefit from the feat directly.
If my character has improved trip your character don't get to trip a enemy without provoking a AoO.
Beside that there is a rule about creating high level characters with crafting feats and their initial WBL, it is in Ultimate Campaign:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
The concept is very clear: a crafting feat isn't a free ticket to double the party WBL, it is a ticket to personalize some items and add 25% of the WBL of a single character to the whole party.
In different campaigns the results can be very different.
The players in my Kingmaker campaign have crafted a lot of items and their WBL is well above the norm.
In the Carrion Crown campaign in which I am playing we are hard pressed for time and I have been capable to craft very few items.
In my mind, crafting is not supposed to give you half price anything. Its about customization. You find a +1 human bane sword, you sell it for half price and make a +1 undead bane sword. Net gain is 0.
Without the feat, you sell the sword for half price, and then wait for the dm to increase loot drops to bring you up to appropriate wealth :p Maybe you find a +2 sword later, but the correct bane was useful right *now* so the feat is not wasted.
|
|
In my mind, crafting is not supposed to give you half price anything. Its about customization. You find a +1 human bane sword, you sell it for half price and make a +1 undead bane sword. Net gain is 0.
Without the feat, you sell the sword for half price, and then wait for the dm to increase loot drops to bring you up to appropriate wealth :p Maybe you find a +2 sword later, but the correct bane was useful right *now* so the feat is not wasted.
The effect of doing that is that you have a higher WBL than the guy selling a +1 human bane sword and the had to add some more cash to purchase a +1 undead bane sword.
The rules I cited say that you are entitled to a higher WBL thanks to your feat, but that increase of your WBL is limited.What make a big difference is if your GM is a guy that place the then loot in the gaming world and then let you do whatever you like with it or if he is a guy that make character audits to check your WBL and then increase/decrease loot on the basis of your WBL.
@diego.
The rules assume the gm audits. Otherwise, it makes no sense to care about wbl at all. You drop loot that the encounters say and that's it.
There is especially no reason to value items as full price or half price depending on who is using them, unless you audit wbl and change loot drops.
Other feats can benefit other character that don't have them, if you have grater trip and trip someone, he is suffering from the prone condition against all opponents.BUT they benefit other in a indirect way, allowing the other characters to benefit from the effects of the feat, not to benefit from the feat directly.
Oh, good find. So the developers did publish a guideline about how crafting feats should affect WBL without skewing things too far into one direction or another.
Of course, whether someone follows this ruling (or any other printed rule really) is subject to house rules at any given gaming table.
As I have previously stated, it is my OPINION that allowing the whole party to benefit from feats a single character takes is NOT cheapening the investment of the feat - quite the opposite really. Of course, with the whole wealth = power can of worms that 3.x opened and that the Pathfinder devs now try to contain, well...
You should, however, not forget that rules do not exist in a vacuum. For example, if an adventure path is especially short on rewards, crafting for half price might be necessary just to MEET expected WBL levels. Not to speak about the availability of certain items when the settlements in the game area simple don't have the buy limits to afford a given item.
So that is what I decide FOR MY GAME: Pre-game crafting is go and it is go for ALL players, provided they have a linked background. And it will be limited to a reasonable amount, say +25% per crafting feat for the OVERALL party's WBL (give or take).
Everybody else is,as always, free to make their own rulings.
Enough with your assumptions...
I'll assume whatever I damn well please, thank you very much. However, if you don't want me to resort to wild guesses, it would be prudent to actually answer my questions.
The thread is about crafting feats on newly created characters. The FAQ says...
Yes. Thanks to Diego Rossi again for sharing. See above.
Can I just claim that in my previous adventures we had a crafter in the group and as such I should have more wealth by level?
You can claim whatever you damn well please. It is just that the DM has the final say about what flies.
If for example, the DM declares that players CAN benefit from a caster's Craft feats pre-game, provided they link backgrounds (consider it a carrot to make characters that actually have a reason for hanging together), then, as long as that crafter from previous adventures was the PC with the crafting feat, sure, go ahead.
And just to make this absolutely clear: All this time I have given my OPINION on the matter. I have stated why I have previously held the view that crafting feats do not allow you to break WBL guidelines (ability to customize gear without being subject to random loot is enough of boon in and of itself).
I have also stated why I have subsequently changed my stance (default assumption is full availability of items limited only by price, Master Craftsman feat enabling non-casters to craft) to allow pre-game crafting.
I am, however, still of a mind that DISALLOWING people to benefit from feats that a given PC took is a dick move. Whether a given player lets other people in on his crafting is HIS decision. Just as long as the whole thing stays within reason. Given that any given crafting feat only allows to customize a single class of items (arms & armour, rings, potions, wondrous items etc.), there is still plenty of incentive left to spread the crafting around a bit.
What YOU rule in YOUR game is up to you and only you.
It is just that "Other people shouldn't be receiving the benefits of someone else's feats." strikes me as either oddly antagonistic from a GM's point of view or as outright hostile from a PC's point of view. If the whole party benefiting from one player's investment gives you hives, I have to wonder if co-operative gameplay (as opposed to competitive gameplay) is really your thing.
Feel free to inform me about your opinion on the matter.