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I tend to favor playing Lawful Good, so yes, I play a lot of heroes. Playing Chaotic is actually very difficult for me - I'm just too predictable and orderly of a person. I tend to test out as Lawful Neutral - I like playing LG characters because they're sort of the ideal of what I'd like to be if I was less cynical and/or apathetic.
One of my all-time favorite and longest-played characters (created in 2006, actively played as my main character on a NWN server until 2011 or so) was a Paladin (and ex-Blackguard). My current characters are an LG Crusader and an LE Zen Archer. The former's your standard hero type, the latter's got a ways to go before she gets to the point she considers her party mates worth risking herself for, but she's already made efforts to keep them out of harm (if only currently for "more people = more efficiency" than "I actually care about you enough to want you still alive", but time will help, we're only two sessions in. ;) ).
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I run my Inquisitor as Robocop.
Serve the Public Trust, Protect the Innocent, Uphold the Law.
Cash and treasure are just a means to aquire items to enforce these three prime directives. He doesn't wear or own any fancy/valuables except for stuff to crush Evil.
"Dead or alive you are coming with me."
I'm currently running a LN half-golem Incarnate of Law; a literal Pathfinderized Robocop. I sense a kindred spirit in your character...
Ya know, I hear that. I get that. I hear the same players repeat it over and over like a mantra. And yet, in my group, those same players have consistently played evil murderhobos non-stop for the past 8 years at least.
Your group of players does not represent all players; your experiences are not universal.
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Ya know, I hear that. I get that. I hear the same players repeat it over and over like a mantra. And yet, in my group, those same players have consistently played evil murderhobos non-stop for the past 8 years at least.Your group of players does not represent all players; your experiences are not universal.
And? Show me where I said my experiences were universal. I thought that was understood when I said "my group" and not "all players."
The point is that, although your particular players aren't playing nice with you, that doesn't support the OP's position that there are "no more heroes anymore." The fact that their behavior has been consistent over time makes the "anymore" part even less appropriate.
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I don't believe that his comments were directed at the OP, but at K177Y C47's (I think I spelled that name right...) comment that heroes are "done to death". And I agree with Josh M. I can't count the number of evil in everything but name characters I have come across in play for me, yet can count on 1 hand and have fingers left over how many good or heroic characters (that wasn't played by me) I have come across in the last 10 years.
Yes, there are still characters being played as heroes, but in my experience, people go for the non-heroic characters and just kill everything they come across. "Because its easier." Why should I play the goody two shoes when I can play a rampaging murderhobo whose actions have no lasting consequences because I leave no witnesses/evidence? I have actually be asked that (though they said "character" instead of "rampaging murderhobo"), and it blew my mind.
I know someone who's idea of a good aligned character is one that kills a prisoner who has committed murder previously, as well as killing anyone or anything that has caused his characters even 1 point of damage, despite being fully healed and never been close to death, and despite the other characters having captured and tied the opponent up. He would just walk up to the prisoner and slit his throat. I have seen CN characters act good than that NG character.
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The point is that, although your particular players aren't playing nice with you, that doesn't support the OP's position that there are "no more heroes anymore." The fact that their behavior has been consistent over time makes the "anymore" part even less appropriate.
I think you're misreading it. I quoted something someone else said(K177Y C47), that reminded me a LOT of what the players in my group say, often, and I gave my feelings on it.
I even specifically said that I'm not calling out K177Y C47, just that what they said reminds me of my players. I don't even know where you're pulling the "your players aren't playing nice with you" bit from. Did I wrong you in another thread or something?
I'm not really understanding the need to micromanage what I said so badly.
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TOZ 's example is what i mean about a hero going in to danger regardless
It happens a lot more with my Good aligned characters.
I had an exalted monk in 3.5 race down a cliff in order to leap out and snatch a falling companion before landing on the opposite cliff face. (This was long before the Avengers movie obviously.)
Said monk also scaled a construct that was grappling an allied NPC to hand him a ring of freedom of movement so he could escape.
I don't even know where you're pulling the "your players aren't playing nice with you" bit from. Did I wrong you in another thread or something?
Not at all -- apologies on my part are evidently due. I was still following the initial conversation of the thread and didn't stop to check that I'd wandered into a tangential side conversation (which, on these boards, goes contrary to most of my experience!). My fault entirely; pray carry on.
I don't even know where you're pulling the "your players aren't playing nice with you" bit from. Did I wrong you in another thread or something?Not at all -- apologies on my part are evidently due. I was still following the initial conversation of the thread and didn't stop to check that I'd wandered into a tangential side conversation. My fault entirely; pray carry on.
No problemo. I've done that plenty of times, myself.
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I've done that plenty of times, myself.
Shoot, I'm usually the one starting the side conversations. I should know better.
. Frank Trollman and K recommended an xp-for-completing adventures paradigm, which would encourage you to complete heroic quests and discourage you from farming mooks for xp and/or stealing all the brass fittings in th4e dungeon; for some reason their idea never caught on.
Probably because, as is the case with most of their better ides, it was surrounded by cursing, shrouded with arrogance, and veiled in insults directed towards any whose ideas might differ. These appear to be the reasons that most of their decent ideas do not gain traction.
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Personally I tend to prefer the darker grittier characters...
Mr. Knight in shining armor is just utterly boring and has been played out way to many times. Additionally, Mr. Do-Gooder-for-the-sake-of-goodness is so utterly bland. It is kind of the reason why I hate superman. He is dull. When you are the epitome of boyscout, your character has no character and you are just kinda... a cardboard cut-out...
That's due to lazy writing, and gritty anti-heroes aren't immune to it; I've seen plenty of darker, grittier characters (both in-game and media), who seem to have nothing more to them besides being dark and gritty.
Gritty characters are just as over-used as pure-good ones, it just depends on your perspective.When I shared the story of Oloc with someone I played with, they liked that he didn't go 'full-brooding anti-hero and adding a bit of a philosophical outlook'. Which, to me, most anti-heroes tend to have have that feature - brooding and has a dramatic backstory to them.
YMMV (Also, 100% with you on Superman - people seem to gawk at me when I shrug about Superman.)
Probably because, as is the case with most of their better ides, it was surrounded by cursing, shrouded with arrogance, and veiled in insults directed towards any whose ideas might differ. These appear to be the reasons that most of their decent ideas do not gain traction.
Roman Polanski is a sorry excuse for a human being, and the world would arguably be a better place without him still in it. That said, Chinatown is a phenomenally good movie.
I think there's a difference between people playing gritty characters and people playing murderhobos with no depth. These are two completely different issues. It's not just that people aren't playing good characters, it's that people aren't playing good characters in a way that isn't 'good in name only' ie. playing good characters that fits your definition of what good 'should be'.
The whole neutral gold-hunter murdering hobo phenomenon has sprung from the fact that there's mechanical advantages to it. Neutrals get a ton from immunity to a lot of the powers of demons and antipaladins. Gold hunting is important because equipment is a way of increasing the character's power, and thus, their survivability. And also you don't risk boring players who have no patience for parleying and just want a beer and pretzel board game thing (not that there's anything wrong with that if everyone's on the same page).
I personally like playing flawed characters with good intentions (mostly LN and NG) and for the most part are good, if a little rough around the edges. I don't rule out any sneaky tactics (barring something extreme of course) or try to redeem absolutely everybody, but honestly I'd expect to take a little flak from certain decisions in-character on occasion. They'd be right to do so. I think there should at least some questioning of whether a character did the right thing or not regardless of alignment. It gives the game depth. Heck it's even brought up in Superman. Look at Man of Steel or Justice League or What Ever Happened to The Man of Tommorow (last one may not be the best example, but at least it raised questions). A superman-esque boy scout character is but only 1 way to play a good character. If there's something that irritates me here it's people who insist good characters can only be played this way and that any other flavor of good (which is evidenced by having a number of LG deities with differing philosophies, no matter how many times they're retconned) is invalid.
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Personally I tend to prefer the darker grittier characters...
Mr. Knight in shining armor is just utterly boring and has been played out way to many times. Additionally, Mr. Do-Gooder-for-the-sake-of-goodness is so utterly bland. It is kind of the reason why I hate superman. He is dull. When you are the epitome of boyscout, your character has no character and you are just kinda... a cardboard cut-out...
I used to think that.
Then I actually read a Superman story.
I know right?I used to think that.
Then I actually read a Superman story.
Wow... That kind of choked me up a little bit.
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In all fairness people do the exact same thing with Batman and 90s anti-heroes. Batman has had moments like that in various incarnations. But people are all too willing to knock something without reading it over 1 work, and sometimes not even that.
Well Superman is still inda of... meh..
My favorite heroes are Ghost Rider, Spawn, The Punisher, Daredevil, Batman (primary the darker bat man in the 90s), and the Watchmen. Superheroes that are PRIMARILY boyscout cut outs like Captain America and Superman bore me because they AS A WHOLE they are rather bland. Yes, its always awesome to see a super hero, but when the guy is SO DAMN REDICULOUSLY GOOD that they are almost unrelatable it kinda loses some stuff. This is why Superman lost a lot of fans to other heroes like Batman because he was just TOO good. He was just TOO unrelatable. It is kind of like the anime Fate Stay//Night when Alexander was talking to Arthur. When you become a shining figure, a paragon of some ideal, people have a harder time connecting because they cannot begin to fathom that level of good or justice.
This is also similiar to say the Saints. Many people cannot connect with the saints because they are so holy that most people cannot relate at all..
So for what i said about gritty characters:
What I am saying is a character who has character. A guy who grew up a nice life and takes it on himself to always be Mr. Prince charming and Always fights "for the good" for no other reason than "because it is what good people do" and acts like a boyscout everywhere is what I cannot stand. The cliche image of "hero." The fact of the matter is, a lot of heroes, are actually more anti-heroes than anything. More often than not, they are thrust into the role, regardless if they want to or not and, at that specific moment, are probably thinking about nohing more than surviving and helping his brothers/comrades survive as well. "For the greater good" and all that nonsense usually is left in the buerocrats office.
Honestly, I like people who say, answer the call of the hero when teh need arises, but otherwise are normal-ish people who have normal-ish desires and lives. I love the legends of kings that, while champions of their people, are also human. Who eat, and drink, and merry like any other. Who weep and cry like a human. Who have real, understandable wants and desires (not "I want rid the world of evil by being a super hero" but instead say "I want to rid the world of this strife by becoming king" or "I just want to experiance the thrill of battle" or some such).
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I found Paragon Shepard far more likable, relatable, and interesting than Renegade Shepard. I prefer characters that have their flaws but actually care about others more than looking "hard" or "badass" or having a high body count.
The notion that idealistic, good-hearted characters must be boring or shallow was tired before the 90's glut of "anti-heroes".*
*In quotes because the 90's Anti-Hero tended to be a sociopath with the moral center of an angry 12 year old more often than not in the comics scene.
Also, Kurt Wagner-fan for life.
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Yeah, but paragon Shepard pistol whips people as a paragon interrupt, and he goes about killing almost as much as renegade Shepard, only being a tad nicer about it. He's no regular boy scout anyway.
The guy that catches that pistolwhip interrupt earned it a hundred times over. Paragon Shepard is Good but she has her limits. I can't think of a single Good character I've played that wouldn't have decked that guy at the very least after what he had done. Even my super-idealistic, super-compassionate paladin would have knocked him flat on his ass, because he's compassionate. And I know my Paragon Shep saved and spared lives that a Renegade Shep wouldn't have.
I'd say Paragon Shepard is a good example of the Good Is Not Dumb and Good Is Not Soft tropes; a rebuttal to claims that good, idealistic heroes are impotent and ineffectual.
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Yeah, but paragon Shepard pistol whips people as a paragon interrupt
#$%!^@ had it coming.
And he better stay the hell away from his brother, because I'm still watching.
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Yeah, but paragon Shepard pistol whips people as a paragon interrupt#$%!^@ had it coming.
And he better stay the hell away from his brother, because I'm still watching.
I take particular joy in that Paragon interrupt.
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Personally I tend to prefer the darker grittier characters...
Mr. Knight in shining armor is just utterly boring and has been played out way to many times. Additionally, Mr. Do-Gooder-for-the-sake-of-goodness is so utterly bland. It is kind of the reason why I hate superman. He is dull. When you are the epitome of boyscout, your character has no character and you are just kinda... a cardboard cut-out...
I'd call that a matter of taste. I hate the grizzled anti-hero. You want to talk about overdone? Wolverine, The Punisher, Lobo, V, Rorschach, The Question, Elric, Hellsing, Batman (granted this is largely dependent upon the writer, but the most well known Batman - Frank Miller's - definitely qualifies), pretty much every video game character ever that's not a Croft or an Italian plumber.
Just . . . ugh. We get it. These characters are like cigarettes - cool and dangerous but ultimately not worth the money and bad for the health of the culture.
Cynicism is easy. I've fallen to it many more times in my life than I care to admit. It's easy and boring and vulgar (in the Shakespearean sense) and I hate, hate, hate, hate it. Even the perennial Boy Scouts like Green Arrow and Superman are getting gritty anti-hero reboots.
Finding another way, being better than the world and not capitulating to it, showing those who have all but given up that there is hope left - that is far from boring. That is the coolest thing imaginable.
The preceding, of course, is all my own opinion and I'm sure there plenty of people who feel the opposite.
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I take particular joy in that Paragon interrupt.Yeah, but paragon Shepard pistol whips people as a paragon interrupt#$%!^@ had it coming.
And he better stay the hell away from his brother, because I'm still watching.
It's right up there with the Tali Hug, stopping that teenager from joining the mercs, and the Paragon reporter interrupts for me.
(hot damn I did not expect the Khalisah al-Jilani arc to wrap up with such FEELINGS)
Personally I tend to prefer the darker grittier characters...
Mr. Knight in shining armor is just utterly boring and has been played out way to many times. Additionally, Mr. Do-Gooder-for-the-sake-of-goodness is so utterly bland. It is kind of the reason why I hate superman. He is dull. When you are the epitome of boyscout, your character has no character and you are just kinda... a cardboard cut-out...
I'd call that a matter of taste. I hate the grizzled anti-hero. You want to talk about overdone? Wolverine, The Punisher, Lobo, V, Rorschach, The Question, Elric, Hellsing, Batman (granted this is largely dependent upon the writer, but the most well known Batman - Frank Miller's - definitely qualifies), pretty much every video game character ever that's not a Croft or an Italian plumber.
Just . . . ugh. We get it. These characters are like cigarettes - cool and dangerous but ultimately not worth the money and bad for the health of the culture.
Cynicism is easy. I've fallen to it many more times in my life than I care to admit. It's easy and boring and vulgar (in the Shakespearean sense) and I hate, hate, hate, hate it. Even the perennial Boy Scouts like Green Arrow and Superman are getting gritty anti-hero reboots.
Finding another way, being better than the world and not capitulating to it, showing those who have all but given up that there is hope left - that is far from boring. That is the coolest thing imaginable.
The preceding, of course, is all my own opinion and I'm sure there plenty of people who feel the opposite.
I agree 100% with this. Along with Mikaze's remarks on the "90's antihero".
I like Captain America and Superman more than I do Wolverine and Batman. Although Superman's Mary Sue/god moding powers are a bit much. Still like him, though.
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It's right up there with the Tali Hug, stopping that teenager from joining the mercs, and the Paragon reporter interrupts for me.
(hot damn I did not expect the Khalisah al-Jilani arc to wrap up with such FEELINGS)
Utterly off-topic...
Did you get the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and viewed all the camera footage on the Broker's ship? al-Jilani getting punched by so many people... ^_^
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It's right up there with the Tali Hug, stopping that teenager from joining the mercs, and the Paragon reporter interrupts for me.
(hot damn I did not expect the Khalisah al-Jilani arc to wrap up with such FEELINGS)
Utterly off-topic...
** spoiler omitted **
It was the Volus where I completely lost it. :D
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Hellsing,
Castlevania Alucard > Hellsing Alucard forever and always in my heart.
Batman (granted this is largely dependent upon the writer, but the most well known Batman - Frank Miller's - definitely qualifies)
90's Animated Series Batman > well you get the picture. ;)
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I knew I liked Mikaze :D
Playing a good character doesn't mean you have to have a holier-than-thou crusading character full of righteous conviction. It just means that on some deep level, you care about other people and act accordingly.
Characters don't always know precisely what the right choice is, and even if they do, there is no guarantee it will be easy. Our Pathfinder characters live in a world that is fundamentally controlled by luck. No matter how much they might try to do the right thing, there is always a chance for them to come up short. If that's not a wonderful source for interesting character conflict, I don't know what is. I'm a big fan of Classical Anti-heroes for this reason.
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pretty much every video game character ever that's not a Croft or an Italian plumber.
Most Console RPGs tend to thankfully avoid this line. Sadly the most well-known ones (FF7 and 8, primarily) do fall victim to it, but the rest of the series, the Chrono series, the Golden Sun series, the Xeno- series, and several others tend to have much less grarh protagonists.
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pretty much every video game character ever that's not a Croft or an Italian plumber.Most Console RPGs tend to thankfully avoid this line. Sadly the most well-known ones (FF7 and 8, primarily) do fall victim to it, but the rest of the series, the Chrono series, the Golden Sun series, the Xeno- series, and several others tend to have much less grarh protagonists.
I liked the way 6 handled it. They were so idealistic and so thought they were going to win. And were so fighting for the side of good. To the point they convinced their enemy to sit down at the table and talk with them.
And then things went straight to crap.
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pretty much every video game character ever that's not a Croft or an Italian plumber.Most Console RPGs tend to thankfully avoid this line. Sadly the most well-known ones (FF7 and 8, primarily) do fall victim to it, but the rest of the series, the Chrono series, the Golden Sun series, the Xeno- series, and several others tend to have much less grarh protagonists.
Final Fantasy 4's Cecil Harvey was my very first paladin and has informed my paladins ever since. :)
He's also still the prettiest hero in the entire series.
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I liked the way 6 handled it. They were so idealistic and so thought they were going to win. And were so fighting for the side of good. To the point they convinced their enemy to sit down at the table and talk with them.
And then things went straight to crap.
I honestly thought I had done something terribly terribly wrong the first time I played the game and got to that part (the going straight to crap part). Final Fantasy VI and Ultima VII: The Serpent Isle were the two games that made me realize how much more video games could be.
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Final Fantasy 4's Cecil Harvey was my very first paladin and has informed my paladins ever since. :)
As is only right and proper... And super fan-art flashback time... man that was forever ago...
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I honestly thought I had done something terribly terribly wrong the first time I played the game and got to that part (the going straight to crap part). Final Fantasy VI and Ultima VII: The Serpent Isle were the two games that made me realize how much more video games could be.I liked the way 6 handled it. They were so idealistic and so thought they were going to win. And were so fighting for the side of good. To the point they convinced their enemy to sit down at the table and talk with them.
And then things went straight to crap.
I reset twice on FF6 before realizing that it was a part of the plot. I thought for certain I was messing up badly!
And then the world after... That game was a rare gem. I miss games like that. Part of why I roleplay.
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I honestly thought I had done something terribly terribly wrong the first time I played the game and got to that part (the going straight to crap part). Final Fantasy VI and Ultima VII: The Serpent Isle were the two games that made me realize how much more video games could be.I liked the way 6 handled it. They were so idealistic and so thought they were going to win. And were so fighting for the side of good. To the point they convinced their enemy to sit down at the table and talk with them.
And then things went straight to crap.
U7 is quite possibly the holy grail of CRPGs to my mind.
Story, adventure, plot twists, a party, a huge open world to explore (along with enough side-quests to make you forget you even had a main questline), and... breadmaking!
It's a feeling I never really had again until Oblivion, and even more so in Skyrim - despite not being able to have half a dozen NPCs trailing in my wake - at least not without using mods :) Also the lack of breadmaking, until the Hearthfire addon!
A quick question to you all are your characters heros in the game in the true sense of the word fighting evil because its the right thing to do risking life and limb to help the common folk
Or are they just a bunch of gold hunters who dont care about anything except profit
False dichotomy. I'm not in this extraplanar "dungeon" for the money, but I'm no shining lantern archon. I'm working on this ... urban renewal project ... so that I can get a good enough reputation that I can show my face in Kyonin again without being an embarrassment. Honing my skills enough that I can teleport myself back is just a bonus.
Every character I play gradually slides toward Lawful Good unless I consciously avoid it. Even the ones who are supposed to be bad guys.
^^^
Oh god....
So... much...fan service...
Just . . . ugh. We get it. These characters are like cigarettes - cool and dangerous but ultimately not worth the money and bad for the health of the culture.
Seriously? Bad for the health of the culture? I hate Hellsing, but I wouldn't call anything outside maybe snuff films that. That's extreme. It reeks of this vibe I'm getting that people who read Superman aren't just better comic book readers, but better people. People who play paladins aren't just better roleplayers, they're better people. I don't even disagree with the majority of that statement, but I really dislike this 'good isn't "cool" anymore' indignant us vs them attitude that reduces everything that is less idealistic than Superman or Lord of the Rings to a ridiculous caricature.
I hate gritty Superman reboots as much as the next guy, but come on. 90s comics had their moments. Remember The Maxx?
And another thing The Question isn't even that cynical, just unhinged. And one more thing, I watched Superman vs The Elite and he had a machine that can take away superpowers the whole time, but didn't use it on that guy who was vaporizing everyone and their grandmother at the beginning. Even Superman shouldn't be considered faultless for a lot of the stuff he does.