Goblin Squad Member
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This game of a Land Rush is competitive and said rules were not made clear to all parties involved. I say all parties because the community at large does not know what we know in regards to what is going on. In my opinion a blog post is not adequate enough to explain the details of this specific event, what it entails and what to expect going forward. The guild term complicates matters, but that should be explained as well to new people why it's used and why you should rethink things.
I just went through and counted myself how many people have signed up for this thing. The number of 1 person backers is astounding. That tells you right there that many don't even understand the point of this Land Rush I feel.
Now there's the issue, here's what I would do to address it. Make a new sticky post, that puts in detail all information in bullet point form about the Land Rush. Specifically address the term guild; address why players must challenge themselves outside of the box and why they should work with other groups to grow their settlement. Smaller groups need to stop thinking 'my' settlement and start thinking 'our' settlement, if they want to land a spot.
Allow people to contact other Land Rush settlements on the GW site.
If that's not possible, create a new post or sticky one of the Land Rush settlement lists and keep it up to date. Encourage new groups to put their contact information in there as well.
After that, have another quick email to backers with a direct link to these forums explaining in detail why it would be in their best interest to check this out.
I have already met some awesome people and it's all because of the system in place. We just need better communication to those joining the Land Rush about what is actually going on.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I'm receptive to the idea that we can clarify the rules if needed. The place to do that is on the Leaderboard page, not here though. Most people will never read a message on these forums. Everyone who uses the Leaderboard will see the Leaderboard page.
I'm trying to understand the concern. What "rule" do you think is unclear from the original blog post?
I'll point out that the use of the word "Guild" isn't likely confusing anyone. If you look at the original Leaderboard poll, you'll see that most Guilds on it have 1 vote. And every one of those Guilds was from someone who purchased a 6-account Guild Reward on the Kickstarter (or at least represented to us that they had done so).
There are just a lot of people out there who are 1-person units hoping to find friends and allies. They're not confused.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm receptive to the idea that we can clarify the rules if needed. The place to do that is on the Leaderboard page, not here though. Most people will never read a message on these forums. Everyone who uses the Leaderboard will see the Leaderboard page.
I'm trying to understand the concern. What "rule" do you think is unclear from the original blog post?
I'll point out that the use of the word "Guild" isn't likely confusing anyone. If you look at the original Leaderboard poll, you'll see that most Guilds on it have 1 vote. And every one of those Guilds was from someone who purchased a 6-account Guild Reward on the Kickstarter (or at least represented to us that they had done so).
There are just a lot of people out there who are 1-person units hoping to find friends and allies. They're not confused.
I'm not sure that's clear, Ryan. I did not. When I created mine it was as a pioneer only, with a bunch of interested friends. If I needed a guild start pack then I should not be on there.
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Hey, while we're asking for things to be clearer: The landrush map is really weird. The legend colors don't seem to match. Any way you could make the colors more distinct than "very similar shades of green", for those of us who have trouble telling the difference?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly wish they'd given us some way to contact them, though. So many are effectively anonymous, and may end up missing out on a Settlement.
I'm guessing a lot of the ones just threw their names on their in case it worked out. That was mostly my thinking. ON the assumption that if they really were settling ties via order of establishment, it couldn't hurt to have the lowest number I could grab. As it turned out, my friends decided to go for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, this is what needs to be defined.
I have reached out to over 30 companies, and some were confused, other upset and thought I was recruiting their membership, until I explained things a bit.
The issue is the word Guild.
Most assume the Land rush is where they are are reserving their "guild's" name, and MAYBE getting a settlement. For the purpose of the Land Rush, Guilds need to be defined as federated companies working together for one settlement. So that they realize, that they may not get their own settlement, because of their numbers, but they might be able to get in on the ground floor of building a settlement with another company(ies).
Also, a lot of groups have not realized that Aeternum, Brighthaven, and Phaeros have already been established. I realize that you have said you weren't really going to add them to the map, but it might do some good to define that they have been won in the prior landrush.
Last, a way to contact groups during the landrush would help coordinate efforts across the board.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@TEO Cheatle When you say "groups" in your last point, you mean something other than the contact link that is listed for each Guild on the Leaderboard? Because we have no mechanism for people to tell us about their companies or Settlements in general and we don't have time to build one.
With regard to your first suggestion about the world "Guild", here's my question:
When you said you reached out to over 30 companies, and they were confused or upset, do you mean that you reached out to 30 guilds on the Land Rush leaderboard, or you contacted 30 people via PMs or email from the forums, or what?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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1: Yeah, it would be nice to have a system for people to set that stuff up but we just don't have time to make one. Social groups that aren't on the Leaderboard are currently not accessible (to us or anyone else) unless they have a message board forum presence.
2: Ok, so we're talking about groups who signed up for the Leaderboard, and that you approached and asked what? If they wanted to quit the Leaderboard and join your group? Just trying to understand what you asked them and why.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) Yes, exactly that, to quit the leader board/landrush and join Brighthaven as a company. Some were confused, and I even got one gentlemen's phone number and had to explain to him the whole thing, because he doesn't really follow the forums. If it would have been in a blog post, then he would have understood it better.
My personal take, is that a lot of people are just paying attention to the Blogs, and not the forums at all, or don't realize that there are forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something that is readily available to all players (in my dream world, an email to anyone who's account established a guild) saying something on the order of "Only the top 33 alliances by population will start with a settlement hex assigned to them, all others will have to clear a hex and hold it if they hope to form a settlement." And that encourages all guild-starters to seek out compatible groups to co-operate. Maybe it could be in the form of a "Golarion Weekly Update" i.e.:
This week in the Golarian update, we have over 100 guilds participating in the pre-launch game to have a settlement hex assigned to their team. We expect the total number of active teams to begin consolidating soon, as jockeying for ideal settlement locations heats up, and smaller guilds find compatible teams with which to work toward a common goal.
For more information about which alliances are in the lead to have a settlement assigned, check out the leader-board at: Much more information can be found in the Forums at (GW forum page with a clear link to "temporary forums at Paizo")
The Pathfinder Online Community is a buzz of activity as players work to forge the start of the online world. Join them now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are going to start putting Land Rush updates into the Blogs so that will pretty clearly tell people that they're not going to get a spot with 1 person.
@TEO Cheatle I do think it's a little creepy that you called someone, tbh. It would creep me out for sure.
Lol It came across to me that the person willingly gave his # to converse and better understand. I doubt that Cheatle info dug it out...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been consistently following the message boards as well as the Land Rush blog, and I'm still a little confused by the situation.
In my scenario, my RL brother signed up with the original Kickstarter funding a guild slot ~$600 (where he could define 6 buddies to receive the same benefits and access). Later, after being named "buddy"
and reading more about the game, my wife and I decided to sign up for alpha access through the Goblin Store on Paizo. Long-term, we will be in the same "guild/company" long-term, but since he signed up for the guild process, we've been hesitant to sign up for a Land-Rush guild due to concerns over losing the buddy benefits or the guild/buddy Kickstarter rewards. We aren't really interested in managing a Settlement long-term, but would enjoy training access or participating as an ally with a larger Settlement-owned group.
While there may not be too many in our specific situation, I will agree with the OP that the Land Rush has been confusing to reconcile between the move over to Goblinworks accounts from Paizo accounts and the 'controversy' over large pre-formed guilds/alliances taking multiple Settlement slots (not necessarily against this - but it makes me worry about limited access for those who are not large-settlement aligned).
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Iatronas - maybe I can help a little bit.
The reason we're using "Guild" as a term for the Land Rush is that "Guilds" are things that exist outside of Pathfinder Online. They're a part of the MMO community landscape. We want to address those entities and the way to do so is to talk to them in their language.
In Pathfinder Online itself there will be no Guilds.
In the game, there will be Parties, Companies, Settlements and Player Nations.
Parties are ad hoc and form and dissolve as desired by people who are on-line and playing at that moment.
Companies are slightly more persistent and exist even when everyone in them is logged off. This is essentially what most Guilds are like in most MMOs.
Settlements are highly persistent and consist of both a physical object in game - the actual Settlement structures - and a social construct consisting of the members of the Settlement. Somewhat confusingly, a characters' physical presence in a Settlement does not make it a member of that Settlement. A Settlement is a little bit like a Fraternity or Sorority. They have a house, AND a club. Visiting the house doesn't make you a member of the club. There's no good analog of this kind of structure in most MMOs because most MMOs don't let players make persistent in-game structures that are meaningful to other players.
Player Nations are agreements between Settlements to combine forces. A Settlement that is in a Player Nation will have options that Settlements that are not in Player Nations will not have.
So we want to talk to the wide world of "Guilds", and tell them why Pathfinder Online will be cool, and that because they're already well organized groups, they should be trying to create and operate a Settlement. That's why we have a "Guild Land Rush" and not a "Settlement Land Rush". If we talked about Settlements (or Companies), the people we're trying to communicate with, the Guilds, wouldn't know we were talking about them.
None of this matters in terms of your Enrollment Status at all.
The two multi-account packages in the Kickstarter were just a convenient way to let one person get multiple accounts rather than forcing them to get all their friends to jump through the Kickstarter hoops. So Buddies are a 2 person account, and Guilds are a 6 person account. We also promised the Guilds that we'd let them reserve their names - our intention is that those names will be used for Companies.
It doesn't matter how you got your account - the only thing that matters is your Enrollment status: Open, Early or Alpha. And all that tells you is when you get to begin playing. Because the Land Rush is for Early Enrollment, the only people who can participate in in are people with Early or Alpha Enrollment status. Joining a "Guild" on the Leaderboard has no effect on your account at all. In fact, it won't even affect your characters in-game. Once the Leader Board promotion is done it ceases to have any meaning at all. It's just marketing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you for working on the weekend to help resolve questions and anxieties! I'm eagerly anticipating PFO. And my wife's GW account just got fixed too ...!
I understand the need to use typical MMO language (e.g. guild) for people outside the community, but when we start migrating or broadening the definition beyond the original intent, it makes for confusion. For the Land Rush, where groups of Companies could in theory come together to vote on a Settlement, it feel like the intent is one-guild = one Settlement. I'm not sure the best way to convey the correct intent to the rest of the MMO world.
I'm happy to hear that the Land Rush is really just marketing and pre-organization for Settlements / larger guilds instead of a long-term commitment affecting the player' account in some way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem does not lay in what definitions Pathfinder is using, but the definitions everyone else has been using for over a decade. The concept of multiple groups coming together to support a single location is that of a coalition, conglomerate or alliance; a guild not only implies a single unified group, but is in the minds of many synonymous with gang, company, clan or faction.
I have met with the same resistance as Cheatle, as I mentioned in a previous thread on this exact topic. The common reaction is that we are asking them to abandon their own group to join another, not that we are asking them as a group to support the same cause. We literally have to preface our outreach with "we are not trying to poach", which sets a terrible tone for the conversation.
It would help if this term were changed altogether, it is week one, it is not too late.
Another point, in Landrush 1 you asked us to not have the original 6 accounts vote for our "guild". Many respected this.
For all of the 1 person guilds out there right now in the guild index, they are literally 1 person groups that are trying to claim a name and maybe a location for that name to call home. Very few actually describe a settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems to be about (1) establishing as a recognized in-game group (with name et al.) and (2) maneuvering of joining groups to strategize over acquiring settlement access/rights/use and/or friendly relations with neighbours clustering together?
Sounds like a good idea to distinguish both those aims.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Pathfinder Online itself there will be no Guilds.
In the game, there will be Parties, Companies, Settlements and Player Nations.
Parties are ad hoc and form and dissolve as desired by people who are on-line and playing at that moment.
Companies are slightly more persistent and exist even when everyone in them is logged off. This is essentially what most Guilds are like in most MMOs.
Settlements are highly persistent and consist of both a physical object in game - the actual Settlement structures - and a social construct consisting of the members of the Settlement. Somewhat confusingly, a characters' physical presence in a Settlement does not make it a member of that Settlement. A Settlement is a little bit like a Fraternity or Sorority. They have a house, AND a club. Visiting the house doesn't make you a member of the club. There's no good analog of this kind of structure in most MMOs because most MMOs don't let players make persistent in-game structures that are meaningful to other players.
Player Nations are agreements between Settlements to combine forces. A Settlement that is in a Player Nation will have options that Settlements that are not in Player Nations will not have.
The two multi-account packages in the Kickstarter were just a convenient way to let one person get multiple accounts rather than forcing them to get all their friends to jump through the Kickstarter hoops. So Buddies are a 2 person account, and Guilds are a 6 person account. We also promised the Guilds that we'd let them reserve their names - our intention is that those names will be used for Companies.
It doesn't matter how you got your account - the only thing that matters is your Enrollment status: Open, Early or Alpha. And all that tells you is when you get to begin playing. Because the Land Rush is for Early Enrollment, the only people who can participate in in are people with Early or Alpha Enrollment status. Joining a "Guild" on the Leaderboard has no effect on your account at all. In fact, it won't even affect your characters in-game. Once the Leader Board promotion is done it ceases to have any meaning at all. It's just marketing.
I think that right there is most of what needs to be re-established, but given in context of the land rush itself. That way people aren't scared about losing their "guild's" identity by joining a one of the top 33 settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well it's becoming more clear
Individuals -> Parties
Individuals -> Companies -> Settlement -> Player Nation
or (?)
Individuals -> Parties
Individuals -> Companies
Individuals -> Settlement -> Player Nation
so i can click on "Disband Guild" without destroying my guild (who by the way does not exist)
And oh yes i have a question: I have earned the following boon "Patron guilds will receive a Guild Starter Pack" - what will be a Guild Starter Pack ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Individuals -> Parties
Individuals -> Companies -> Settlement -> Player Nation
NO
Individuals -> Parties
Individuals -> Companies
Individuals -> Settlement -> Player Nation
YES
Companies can exist independently of Settlements and reciprocally. However a Settlement cannot expect to grow without sponsoring companies exploiting PoI linked to it and providing raw materials.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm happy to hear that the Land Rush is really just marketing and pre-organization for Settlements / larger guilds instead of a long-term commitment affecting the player' account in some way.
Agreed. I think it is important that at some point, the FAQ should explain this in more detail. That your affiliation to a Settlement and/or Company may be on a different level then being in a group that disbands after an evening, but can be, and will be as much prone to change over the course of weeks, months and years, as a group does in hours.
I expect that loyalty to Settlements will be very, very strong, but nobody is locked into one. Nor are they locked into their Company. And there are all sorts of machinations at play because of the whole Settlement setup of the game. Companies will change settlements, free members will change settlements, voluntarily or because their Settlement was razed. Alignments changing may have a role in this. Even Settlements themselves are not locked into the World: they can become History.
It should be very clear to any new player coming to the Goblinworks Website, that you do not "choose a settlement and go play with it". That seems like a no-brainer to us maybe, but not everyone digs as deep into a Website when looking for something new to play as some of us.