What ones can and can't be used by a character. It's a simple situation. 2 people right beside each other, one tries to get away.
What maneuevers can and can't be used against them in that moment? Let's assume it's a fighter, as well as monk for sanity's sake.
What can they do, and please post where you find the rules. I'm at a loss.
Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Drag, Grapple, Overrun, Reposition, and Steal are Standard actions. You can't use them for an AoO.
Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are attacks, and can be used as an AoO.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers
Just look at what action it says the maneuver uses.
Looking at the Combat Chapter of the CRB, it seems like Disarm, Sunder and Trip would be allowed and everything else is not. I know there are errata around this, it is possible I am not up to date on this, other posters will probably have better info.
So, here's a question. A target does 'something' to trigger an AoO. You decide to trip that target as your AoO, you don't have improved trip, so that triggers an AoO on you from the target. He gets his AoO first, and decids to trip you. he doesn't have improved trip, so that triggers an AoO from you to him... So where does this stop?
So, here's a question. A target does 'something' to trigger an AoO. You decide to trip that target as your AoO, you don't have improved trip, so that triggers an AoO on you from the target. He gets his AoO first, and decids to trip you. he doesn't have improved trip, so that triggers an AoO from you to him... So where does this stop?
I seem to remember somewhere that Attacks of Opportunity cannot generate a return Attack of Opportunity. It may be a holdover from 3.0/3.5 though. This would make the Trip action valid without causing an AoO.
Yes, AoO's can draw AoO's of their own.
It stops when one of you can't make AoO's anymore.
Normally, there is a limit of 1 per round, if you have Combat Reflexes you can make a number equal to your Dex mod.
So, if Fighter A has Combat Reflexes, and Fighter B doesn't
Fighter B stands from prone, drawing an AoO.
Fighter A attacks B with an unarmed strike, without Improved Unarmed Strike, which also draws and AoO.
Fighter B gets an AoO and decides to unarmed strike, but he also doesn't have IUS, so he draws another AoO.
It resolves as
A's second AoO (for B punching him)
B's AoO (for A punching him)
A's AoO for B standing
B can complete his round
This chain could go on much longer if both combatants have Combat Reflexes and high Dex mods.
Yes, AoO's can draw AoO's of their own.
It stops when one of you can't make AoO's anymore.
Normally, there is a limit of 1 per round, if you have Combat Reflexes you can make a number equal to your Dex mod.
So, if Fighter A has Combat Reflexes, and Fighter B doesn't
Fighter B stands from prone, drawing an AoO.
Fighter A attacks B with an unarmed strike, without Improved Unarmed Strike, which also draws and AoO.
Fighter B gets an AoO and decides to unarmed strike, but he also doesn't have IUS, so he draws another AoO.It resolves as
A's second AoO (for B punching him)
B's AoO (for A punching him)
A's AoO for B standing
B can complete his roundThis chain could go on much longer if both combatants have Combat Reflexes and high Dex mods.
Right, I understand the per round limits - but there are issues with the order of execution. When using something like a trip AoO.
A attempts to trip B. This gives B an AoO against A.
B decides to try to trip A first, which gives A an AoO against B.
A resolves is opportunist trip, and succeeds, putting B prone. Does B still get to try to trip A? How does this all work when what started it was A trying to trip B, but by the time he gets to actually resolve the triggering action, B's already prone.... :-)
I would agree, the 3.5 rule of AoO's not triggering AoO's is the only way to resolve these types of immediate action chains - but I'm not aware of that written anywhere in the current rules.
Right, I understand the per round limits - but there are issues with the order of execution. When using something like a trip AoO.
A attempts to trip B. This gives B an AoO against A.
B decides to try to trip A first, which gives A an AoO against B.
A resolves is opportunist trip, and succeeds, putting B prone. Does B still get to try to trip A? How does this all work when what started it was A trying to trip B, but by the time he gets to actually resolve the triggering action, B's already prone.... :-)I would agree, the 3.5 rule of AoO's not triggering AoO's is the only way to resolve these types of immediate action chains - but I'm not aware of that written anywhere in the current rules.
Remember that AoO's are resolved before the action that triggered them.
So in your example
A trips B
B gets AoO, trips A
A gets AoO
it would resolve
A gets AoO (whatever he does with it)
B trips A
A, now prone, can trip B
Aside from learning exactly what I need from this, I've come to the conclusion that if I want to do like 8 things in one round I shouldn't take any expertise feats and trip, disarm, sunder, and bull rush people while prone.
Neat.
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Well, they're all attacks, but Samasboy1's division of maneuvers into Standard Action vs. Attack Actions looks accurate to me.
You can make Attack Action maneuvers as attacks of opportunity.
You can't make Standard Action Maneuvers as attacks of opportunity.
Unless you can.
There are feats, like Quick Bull Rush, that let you Bull Rush as an attack action, and therefore as an attack of opportunity.
There is the Grab ablilty that lets you Initiate a Grapple as part of an attack.
So if someone with Greater Trip (and Combat Reflexes) Trips you, and you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by getting up, there's no reason why he can't trip you again and then get another attack of opportunity when you go down again.
But if you are backing up from an Enlarged Alexander Karelin, and he grapples and pins you as an attack of opportunity, you DM made that up.
You've, uh, got some more research to do.
First, Disarm/Sunder/Trip don't say "attack action", they say in place of a melee attack.
"Attack action" is a specific type of standard action and therefore can NOT be used in an AoO, but something which simply replaces a melee attack CAN be used in an AoO.
Quick Bull Rush and friends do not let you use a maneuver as an "attack action" (which is a kind of standard action), they let you use a maneuver in place of one of your attacks (kind of implying during a full-attack, the way it's written) and only during your own turn.
Finally, the AoO provoked by someone standing up cannot be used to trip them, because the AoO resolves while they're already still prone.
I feel like the replacement of bull rush with an attack action would allow it to be used as an AoO if the situation ever came up, really. It wouldn't hurt to clarify this sort of thing though.
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I feel like the replacement of bull rush with an attack action would allow it to be used as an AoO if the situation ever came up, really. It wouldn't hurt to clarify this sort of thing though.
1) There's nothing that makes Bull Rush use the Attack Action.
2) The Attack Action has already been officially clarified multiple times to be a specific type of standard action, not just any old attack you make.There's nothing to clarify. (Though I suppose there's always something to publicize?)
Aside from learning exactly what I need from this, I've come to the conclusion that if I want to do like 8 things in one round I shouldn't take any expertise feats and trip, disarm, sunder, and bull rush people while prone.
Neat.
.... did you name that character Shuffleboard?
I think you can backdoor bull rush on an AoO if you have the Shield Slam feat, otherwise I can't figure out how.
All I know is I can Disarm people while they're standing up, so I'm set. Bonus points for doing so from a distance with a glaive. That said, if I have reach, do I even need to worry about attacks of opportunity on someone who can't technically reach me? Say someone is standing up and I can reach them, but they can't reach me. Could I disarm them, then, not worrying about feat implications at all, really?
I just realized I can use brace to trip people that charge me
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All I know is I can Disarm people while they're standing up, so I'm set.
Disarm and Trip can form a nice little loop like that, if you have Combat Reflexes. Trip them, then they spend a move to stand and you disarm on the AoO, then they spend a move (while standing) to pick up the weapon and you trip on the AoO, then next turn they spend a move to stand and you disarm on the AoO... you get the idea.
Bonus points for doing so from a distance with a glaive. That said, if I have reach, do I even need to worry about attacks of opportunity on someone who can't technically reach me? Say someone is standing up and I can reach them, but they can't reach me. Could I disarm them, then, not worrying about feat implications at all, really?
Yep, they can't take an AoO if they don't threaten you. Remember, though, that there are consequences for failure on Disarm and Trip. Fail badly enough, and you'll either drop your weapon or fall on your arse, respectively. The +2 from the same feat that removes the AoO will make such an event less likely.
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You can combine a bull rush with the Shield Bash attack action with the feat Shield Slam. You can Shield Bash as an attack of opportunity. If you use Shield Slam, and the target is prevented from moving, then they fall prone. If you have Vicious Stomp, you can AoO them again. If you have Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunist, you can Slam them again and maybe even get an AoO loop going if the conditions are right.I feel like the replacement of bull rush with an attack action would allow it to be used as an AoO if the situation ever came up, really. It wouldn't hurt to clarify this sort of thing though.1) There's nothing that makes Bull Rush use the Attack Action.
2) The Attack Action has already been officially clarified multiple times to be a specific type of standard action, not just any old attack you make.There's nothing to clarify. (Though I suppose there's always something to publicize?)
None of that is the Attack Action, which is what I was commenting on.