I need help with my Grenadier. We’re playing Way of the Wicked campaign with a party of three: a Fighter, a Ranger-Cavalier-Ninja and my Grenadier. All characters are currently on level four. The Campaign goes up to level 20. 25 point buy.
My main problem is that I WANT to use my Grenadier to the best of her ability. But I don’t know how to. I’m throwing bombs like hell but in the last two sessions haven’t used my bow at all. It just seems so much easier to hit Touch AC. And that Bardiche Profiency? Haven’t used it at all.
When I made this character I was thinking of a criminal mastermind. Someone who uses her mind, not her charisma to gain power and wealth. For me that meant taking Breadth of Experience – and Leadership later, with the approval of our GM.
Now I feel that Grenadier may be a wrong choice for that kind of concept. Our GM lets us use Retraining rules. I already had to change my Breadth of Knowledge for Point Blank Shot because I wasn’t hitting anything. Precise Shot is a must also because I want to be good at range.
All boils down to this: I want to be good at range. But I also want to be a bad ass criminal lord. How can I merge these two things? Can it be done? If so, how? Or should I just choose one or the other? And what Feats and Discoveries should I take?
There are three courses of action I’ve considered:
A) No optimization, just pure fun. Plan some ahead but pick up Feats and Discoveries that sound and feel good. Pros: character will be nice to roleplay, it feels and looks cool. Cons: other players of the group really know their stuff. So when we reach higher levels my Alchemist may be totally useless. Well, in battle, any way.
B) Use Retraining rules to revert to vanilla Alchemist and focus more on bombs. Maybe pick up another archetype like Mindchemist? Pros: Super Villain theme gets a good bump. Cons: Ranged combat boils down to just throwing them bombs – and I don’t like to depend on such a limited resource. Also no Alchemical Weapon.
C) [Insert YOUR option]
You can find the character sheet by clicking the link below. PLEASE NOTE: The Character sheet contains some minor spoilers for Way of the Wicked Campaing. It also lacks the fourth level Discovery because I’ve not picked one yet.
Finally, these are the Feats and Discoveries I’ve thought of taking:
Feats:
1 – Point Blank Shot, Martial Weapon Profiency (Bardiche)
3 – Precise Shot
5 – Iron Will?
7 – Leadership?
9 – Breadth of Knowledge?
Discoveries:
2 – Infusion, Precise Bombs [Grenadier]
4 – Explosive Missile?
6 – Wings?
8 – Force Bomb?
I think 'criminal mastermind' is more how you play it than how you build it. I have to mention that the criminal mastermind seems more like it would go with a class that is more subtle than 'guy that chucks around loud explosive packages,' but it can be made to work.
Although if you GM is ok with it, Leadership can eventually provide you with a ready made (and at least fairly loyal) organization.
As an int caster you should be able to put enough points to be decent at sense motive, intimidate, diplomacy, etc...
However, you could make your cohort be some sort of social genius to do all the talking and bargaining for you. Even better if you can get some way to have telepathic communication with the cohort.
If you're careful you might even be able to do this with a familiar.
The one way in which build can effect the 'criminal mastermind' aspect is if you intend to magically compel loyalty and submission. In which case alchemist is the wrong class altogether.
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Related to the build. Bardiche does not strike me as criminal mastermind. It is more very obvious guard soldier. I might go for something more like a starknife. can be concealed and used in melee and ranged combat.
Are your combats happening at too long a range for you to throw? If not, then explosive missile probably won't gain you a lot. Consider Precise Bombs. Don't want to blow up your allies. Or at least not the swag you're there to steal.
Some of the other effects seem very criminal mastermind appropriate to me. Poison, Madness, Smoke, Stink, Dispelling, and Concussive Bombs all seem like the kinds of things a super villain would use.
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I don't know the campaign, so I can't give you anything specific to that.
If you're using bombs a lot cognatogen may be more use than infusion.
Firing tanglefoot or tangleburn bags using your grenadier ability is expensive but probably your best way of making archery useful. With a 10 strength, medium BAB and limited bonus damage archery's never going to be your primary tactic.
MWP in elven curve blade instead would let you look forward to getting an agile weapon to make use of your dexterity. Alchemists are reasonably good at buffing for melee. You'd need to get Weapon Finesse if you went this way.
I'd go for smoke bomb and stink bomb rather than explosive missile and force bomb. YMMV.
@Kydeem de'Morcaine
According to our GM, Leadership is renamed to "Criminal Organization" in this AP. So yeah, it should work :)
Yes, I COULD be good at Diplomacy etc. But I don't want to. Mainly because I almost always play the party diplomancer. It leaves quite a gap to our social die rolls, because not a single soul in our group has invested in Diplomacy. But the other character has +12 to Bluff when he's lying and that has saved our butts. So far.
All your other suggestions are gold. It's a state of mind really. Didn't realize that before.
@Wuliem BrokenCrown
Action economy.. I know this: for Alchemist it sucks. I've found it extremely diffcult to be effective in battle. Tumor Familiar should really help.
Thanks for the link!
... Tumor Familiar should really help. ...
Once you have any familiar, consider improved familiar. Some of them are really amazing for an evil criminal mastermind.
There are two routes to do lots of damage for a Grenadier. First is Explosive Missile, the idea here is to use stealth and reconnaissance so that you get to prepare an ambush, and you can make it hurt by stacking things like LoneKnave suggested. The other route is to nova like nobody else in the game with Rapid Bombs, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Who cares what your attack penalty is, touch AC actually gets easier to hit over time as opposed to regular and flat footed AC. You can drop 8 bombs/round by 15th level if you go this route.
Either way, combat ability has next to nothing to do with why this guy would be scary.
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With a strength of 10 I wouldn't expect too much out of that Bardiche. I typically use Grenadier to get bow proficiency, but if you're playing an elf, perhaps the archetype isn't right for you? (You don't really need Precise Bombs if you can just whip out your bow and use that when your teammates are in melee.) Clone Master or Mindchemist definitely do a much better job of playing towards the mastermind side of things - Mindchemist gets you a bigger boost on Knowledge checks than Breadth of Experience.
If you want to be a mastermind, I would suggest leaning your discoveries towards more battlefield-control style stuff - take Smoke Bomb and Stink Bomb, for example. That way, you can direct the flow of battle, giving cover to your allies, separating and hobbling your enemies, and making sure combat takes place on your terms. Also, if you're a mindchemist, you can use an Int cognatogen to boost your bomb damage & save DCs, making you an even more effective debuffer.
@Kydeem de'Morcaine
Don't know if I dare to take Improved Familiar. Too many good choices! Can you recommend some creature from the list?
@Reynard_the_fox
A really good point. I like to do damage with my characters. Massive damage. But there's already two fighter types in our group so... I just have to enter a different mind set. I'm taking Smoke Bomb. For now. Just have to see how it fares in combat.
And yes, I think I have the wrong archetype. Main problem here is I don't get to play that much - how many fathers of small children do? - and am playing in a group that knows their stuff like no other. That sort of leaves me a bit handicapped in terms of knowing the rules. I'm straining to be as good as I can be but it's hard sometimes. Luckily I can use Retraining so only little gold is lost in the process.
@Kydeem de'Morcaine
Don't know if I dare to take Improved Familiar. Too many good choices! Can you recommend some creature from the list? ...
Do you want it to be a scout, negotiator, or wand monkey?
... Main problem here is I don't get to play that much - how many fathers of small children do? - and am playing in a group that knows their stuff like no other. That sort of leaves me a bit handicapped in terms of knowing the rules. I'm straining to be as good as I can be but it's hard sometimes. ...
First: I have been where you are and it can be a bit difficult to keep up. Don't sweat it. This is hobby for everyone's entertaining fun escapism. It is not your employment. I have never been at a table where everyone was at the same level of skill with every aspect of the game. Give your attention, thought, and participation during the game - It's all good.
Personally, I can always help someone at the table with imprecise rules comprehension. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But the guy that won't pay attention or doesn't try to get 'into the character' (even a little bit) and participate, is much more problematic.Second: Having said that, Alchemist isn't the easiest class to play. They have some confusing abilities, modified by other abilities, preempted by yet more abilities, etc... (Now is it 3d6 of explosive damage with 2d6 of sonic damage, and all of it is holy? Which what for splash damage? But my conatagen means...) Very easy to get it messed up. Of the alchemist types, the mad bomber grenadier is probably the easiest. (The guys going the Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde route tend to get even more confused).
If you (and the GM) are open to a completely new character, we can make suggestions on things that are easier to keep track of and learn. If not, we're more than happy to help you with this one.
btw: Do you have something like Herolabs to build your character? I find it terribly helpful.
@Kydeem de'Morcaine
Didn't even know the Familiar could be anything else besides Wand Monkey. Or a handy tool to be used with crafting (Valet Archetype). How can it be a negotiator? I just want it to help with my action economy (N. Jolly's guide has a few good pointers).
I actually talked with the group about me being a little underproductive. Guess what? It was just in my head. Still can't optimize, still can't power play, but now that I've said what's on my heart out loud, playing just feels.. more gratifying. We do make our own prisons, right?
I've noticed that the Alchemist is somewhat hard to play because of all the book keeping. I've got some minor questions considering the class and its abilities, I'll post them to a new thread when I have the time.
The archetype is wrong. Haven't used any of its abilities yet. And we're level five. I'm not making a new character, just retraining this one. Most interesting options have been presented here already: Mindchemist and Clonemaster. The Mindchemist's pros are clear, but the Clonemaster is a bit tricker. Please explain how Simulacrum, Lesser is good to have? Seems like an awful spell if the creation isn't even under my command!
I do have HeroLab. Made this character with it. But it's just so darn expensive that I don't know if I'll be able to use it much longer. I just drool over the content without the money to buy it. Sad times.
EDIT: I didn't take Tumor Familiar yet. Instead took Stink Bomb, haven't had the opportunity to use it yet though. As I wrote earlier, I'm going to take the equivalent of Leadership in WotW campaign and I think it works the same way as Leadership, so a Familiar nets me -2 on my Leadership Score :/ But still, the Familiar fits so snugly into the Mastermind concept that I'll take it anyway!
@Kydeem de'Morcaine
Didn't even know the Familiar could be anything else besides Wand Monkey. Or a handy tool to be used with crafting (Valet Archetype). How can it be a negotiator? I just want it to help with my action economy (N. Jolly's guide has a few good pointers). ...
Actually I forgot about the crafting because my home group virtually never uses it and PFS doesn't allow it. But yes, that is a valid use.
Many of familiars make good scouts or even spies.
A few people use them as nothing but a last ditch bodyguard to give them a round or two to escape. I think that is a waste, but I've seen it work.
Diplomats, it isn't common. There are a few with good communication skills and high charisma.
The Lyrakien Azata has a diplomacy of +16 and can speak with anything that has a spoken language. That's not stellar, but it's pretty good and could be improved with some items or spells.
It's certainly better than many non-charisma casters that often dump charisma, don't have it as a class skill, and don't take any ranks in it.
It could still be a wand monkey with it's high charisma helping.
If I did that, I would make my cohort an intimidate-brute. Then they could play good cop - bad cop, while you watch as the silent inigmatic mastermind.
Went through the Improved Familiars. There doesn't seem to be any diplomatically inclined familiars for LE characters :/ That Lyrakien Azata seemed very good...
Oh well. Might just make my Cohort a bard of some sort, dashing looks and a silvery tongue. Pair with a Cacodaemon familiar and the good cop - bad cop setting is suddenly possible :)
Is there some RAW on familiars and wand (or any other magic item) usage? What about taking Improved Familiar Feat with Tumor Familiar?
EDIT: Looked through the Familiar list with a more critical eye. Good choices there. Spirit Oni could be a perfect spy AND a mask worn by the Evil Mastermind, so that the lowly grunts never see their master's face... Rakshasa, Raktavarna could be a good spy too and I could use its senses instead of my own... And then there's the Cacodaemon...
How about taking the Student of Philosophy trait? That, combined with your high INT, makes you good at both dplomacy and bluff.
Familiars can use wands with UMD iirc, and I think you can take tumor familiar with improved familiar.
That is an option. You are talking about the Additional Traits -Feat, right? However, Feat starved as I am with this character, it's not a choice lightly made. If there's a good trait to pair this with, then ablolutely yes.
Well, you only have reactionary listed as a trait.
Oh. My mistake. There's also a Campaign Trait called High Treason (gives +1 to Will saves), so my traits are all used up.
Pragmatic acticvator gives you UMD keyed off of your INT instead of CHA. Another good one.
Yes! Good one. But now I have even MORE good thingies to choose from XD
Oh well, we'll have just one more session of WotW before rpg summer break so I've got plenty of time to consider...
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Is there some RAW on familiars and wand (or any other magic item) usage? What about taking Improved Familiar Feat with Tumor Familiar?
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My understanding is that and familiar that is biped with hands, humanoid, or draconic can activate wands or administer potions (but not scrolls for some reason).
Yes, the tumor familiar does qualify for improved familiar.
Posted some questions about the Alchemist to a new thread.