Hi!
Due to an unfortunate case of character demise I find myself back to the drawing board to craft another PC. One of the possible candidates is a paladin of Sarenrae and while I'm comfortable with the fluff Pathfinder is not my strong suite so I struggle with the crunch. I want to make an effective and playable character without being broken. So I turn to you for advice.
Characterwise I'm looking for a pious paladin that could fit in with the artwork of Kyra (the Pathfinder iconic cleric).
The building guildelines are as follows:
- 25pt buy
- Level 9
- Ordinary starting wealth (46000 gp)
- No 3rd party books, and as limited to Core+Advanced Player's Guide as possible
This is what I've got so far:
Female Human (Keleshite) Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1/Paladin 8
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 15, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 74 (8d10+1d8+17)
Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +15
Immune charm, disease, fear
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+6/15-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 10 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1), battle dance: inspire courage, channel positive energy 5/day (DC 20, 4d6), smite evil
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +15)
. . At will—detect evil
Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +7):
1st (3/day)—expeditious retreat, grease
0 (at will)—light, open/close (DC 16), prestidigitation, read magic
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +11):
2nd—litany of defense (2), righteous vigor (DC 18)
1st—bless weapon, divine favor, lesser restoration
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 22
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 23
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Improved Critical (scimitar), Piranha Strike, Weapon Finesse
Traits ambassador, sacred touch
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +4, Diplomacy +20, Handle Animal +10, Heal +12, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +5, Perform (dance) +12, Perform (sing) +13, Stealth +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, battle dance, divine bonds (weapon +2, 1/day), lay on hands, mercies (mercy [diseased], mercy [fatigued])
Combat Gear dawnflower sash; Other Gear +3 mithral agile breastplate, +2 scimitar, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, 2,785 gp
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Special Abilities
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Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Ambassador Your natural abilities at mediation and compromise manifested at a young age. For as long as you can remember, you were always more able to solve disputes and carefully settle violent disagreements than others. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Diplomacy
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (10 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Battle Dance (move action) A Dawnflower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnflower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but thes
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dawnflower sash This long strip of red Qadiran fabric is wrapped around the wearer's waist or head several times and held in place by an ankh-shaped clasp of red gold. The wearer is protected as if by endure elements, but only in warm environments. If the wearer unwraps the sash to its full length and holds the clasp in her hand, she can use feather fall once per day, briefly leaving behind a trail of pleasant red-gold light as bright as a torch that lasts for 1 round.
If Sarenrae is the wearer's patron, the wearer can use the sash to cast cure light wounds once per day on command. The wearer can trigger this ability as an immediate action if reduced to -1 hit points or fewer, though thereafter the sash must be recharged by placing it in strong sunlight for 8 continuous hours. As a swift action, the wearer can cause the clasp to shine as brightly as a torch or cease this illumination; the light is warm, feels like sunlight, and is bright enough to make sun-fearing creatures slightly uncomfortable but not so bright as to cause them harm.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cure light wounds, endure elements, feather fall, light; Cost 1,250 gp
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Bond (Weapon +2) (8 minutes) (1/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (4d6) (10/day) (Su) You can heal 4d6 damage, 10/day
Mercy (Diseased) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes disease, as per the remove disease spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 4d6 (5/day) (DC 20) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sacred Touch You were exposed to a potent source of positive energy as a child, perhaps by being born under the right cosmic sign, or maybe because one of your parents was a gifted healer. As a standard action, you may automatically stabilize a dying creature mer
Smite Evil (3/day) (Su) +6 to hit, +8 to damage, +6 deflection bonus to AC when used.
I'm very fond of agile characters and I think the scimitar is a cool weapon, so the feats "Weapon finesse" and "Dervish Dancer" are a must. Other than that I need some advice.
- What feats should I take?
- Is there a paladin archtype I should look into?
- What kind of equipment should I go for (I'm pretty vanilla so my try only contains stuff to raise stats and AC)?
- What kind of spells should I go for?
- Any other advice?
Though it is a spell from ultimate combat, I would suggest looking at litany of righteousness. Really powerful, especially powerful in a team of good fellows. Other than that, Dervish Dance is a good route to go with a paladin of saranrae. Seeing as you'll be oozing with DEX maybe pick up a bow with a minor enchantment (+1 at least) besides that there is the basic stuff like power attack (need STR of 13). If you want to be agile and moving around the battlefield unscathed look into mobility and other like minded feats. Good luck
Thanks for the suggestions! I like Hero's Defiance but for some reason I can't find it in Herolab.
I might take a look at litany of rigteousness but right now it feels abit to "hands on" for what I had in mind.
Thanks for the suggestions! I like Hero's Defiance but for some reason I can't find it in Herolab.
I might take a look at litany of rigteousness but right now it feels abit to "hands on" for what I had in mind.
You can find the spell in the Advanced Player's Guide. If you do not have this add-on, that would likely be why you cannot find it.
Best wishes!
If you go with Dervish dance (flavorful for you), you may want to dip 1-2 levels into Dawnflower Dervish as it gives it for free, as well as some cool bard spells.
You may also consider picking up unsanctioned knowledge for dance of a thousand cuts later.
He already took a level of Dawnflower Dervish.
The others are correct about Piranha Strike, unless your GM approves it. Mobility is a good option if you're looking for skirmishing!
If you go with Dervish dance (flavorful for you), you may want to dip 1-2 levels into Dawnflower Dervish as it gives it for free, as well as some cool bard spells.
You may also consider picking up unsanctioned knowledge for dance of a thousand cuts later.
What does “Unsactioned knowledge” and “Dance of a thousand cuts” do?
You can find the spell in the Advanced Player's Guide. If you do not have this add-on, that would likely be why you cannot find it.
Best wishes!
I think I’ve figured out why I couldn’t see it and it makes me feel quite silly. I think I was looking at the “Bard” tab and not the “Paladin” tab of the character...
The others are correct about Piranha Strike, unless your GM approves it. Mobility is a good option if you're looking for skirmishing!
D’oh! Saw that when I first made the character but when it said “You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability)” I wondered if that could include Piranha Strike. So I tested it in Herolab and I accepted the damage bonus, so I thought it was OK. Now I tried the same with a long sword and I still got the damage bonus, so I guess it’s a bug in the Herolab data file. One of the many cons of being a slave to the character creation software… But I guess that I saved myself a feat!
The next iteration:
Linah Jamil'Kaid
Female Human (Keleshite) Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1/Paladin 8
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 74 (8d10+1d8+17)
Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +14
Immune charm, disease, fear
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+6/15-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 10 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1), battle dance: inspire courage, channel positive energy 6/day (DC 20, 4d6), smite evil
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +15)
. . At will—detect evil
Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +7):
1st (3/day)—comprehend languages, liberating command
0 (at will)—dancing lights, light, prestidigitation, resistance
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +11):
2nd—resist energy, righteous vigor (DC 18), weapon of awe (DC 18)
1st—bless weapon, hero's defiance, lesser restoration
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 22
Base Atk +8; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Extra Lay on Hands, Improved Critical (scimitar), Mobility
Traits ambassador, sacred touch
Skills Acrobatics +7, Diplomacy +20, Handle Animal +10, Heal +12, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +5, Perform (dance) +14, Perform (sing) +14, Sleight of Hand +8
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, battle dance, divine bonds (weapon +2, 1/day), lay on hands, mercies (mercy [diseased], mercy [fatigued])
Combat Gear dawnflower sash; Other Gear +3 mithral agile breastplate, +2 scimitar, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, 3,785 gp
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Special Abilities
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Ambassador Your natural abilities at mediation and compromise manifested at a young age. For as long as you can remember, you were always more able to solve disputes and carefully settle violent disagreements than others. You gain a +2 trait bonus to Diplomacy
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (10 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Battle Dance (move action) A Dawnflower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnflower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but thes
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dawnflower sash This long strip of red Qadiran fabric is wrapped around the wearer's waist or head several times and held in place by an ankh-shaped clasp of red gold. The wearer is protected as if by endure elements, but only in warm environments. If the wearer unwraps the sash to its full length and holds the clasp in her hand, she can use feather fall once per day, briefly leaving behind a trail of pleasant red-gold light as bright as a torch that lasts for 1 round.
If Sarenrae is the wearer's patron, the wearer can use the sash to cast cure light wounds once per day on command. The wearer can trigger this ability as an immediate action if reduced to -1 hit points or fewer, though thereafter the sash must be recharged by placing it in strong sunlight for 8 continuous hours. As a swift action, the wearer can cause the clasp to shine as brightly as a torch or cease this illumination; the light is warm, feels like sunlight, and is bright enough to make sun-fearing creatures slightly uncomfortable but not so bright as to cause them harm.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cure light wounds, endure elements, feather fall, light; Cost 1,250 gp
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Bond (Weapon +2) (8 minutes) (1/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (4d6) (12/day) (Su) You can heal 4d6 damage, 12/day
Mercy (Diseased) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes disease, as per the remove disease spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 4d6 (6/day) (DC 20) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Sacred Touch You were exposed to a potent source of positive energy as a child, perhaps by being born under the right cosmic sign, or maybe because one of your parents was a gifted healer. As a standard action, you may automatically stabilize a dying creature mer
Smite Evil (3/day) (Su) +6 to hit, +8 to damage, +6 deflection bonus to AC when used.
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Saw the “Bodyguard” feat and think that’s something I’d like to have sooner or later. Any ideas of feats I should switch out for that one?
You don't have to be a dervish to be effective.
Str 16 +3 (5 points, +2 belt)
Dex 17 +3 (7 points, +2 belt)
Con 10 +0 (0 points)
Int 13 +1 (3 points)
Wis 10 +0 (0 points)
Cha 20 +5 (10 points, +2 race, +2 headband)
Traits: Resilient, Indomitable Faith
Feats: Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Unsanctioned Knowledge, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical Scimitar
Gear: Scimitar +2, Belt of Str/Dex +2, Mithral Full Plate +2, Headband of Cha +2, Cloak of Resistance +1, Small Spiked Mithral Shield +2, Ring of Protection +1
If you pick up Shield Master at 11th level it gets even better.
Unsanctioned Knowledge lets you pick one spell of levels 1 through 4 from the Bard, Cleric or Inquisitor spell list and add them to the Paladin spell list, so just grab some goodies like Mirror Image and you shouldn't miss the Bard level.
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Why the level of Bard? Paladins aren't particularly feat starved, especially if they are Human. I would suggest straight paladin with the following feats, since you are starting at level 9:
1) Weapon Finesse and Fey Foundling
3) Dervish dance
5) Power Attack (min STR: 13)
7) Weapon Focus: Scimitar (optional, as your attack stat (DEX) is pretty high)
9) Improved Critical: Scimitar
You don't have to be a dervish to be effective.
** spoiler omitted **
If you pick up Shield Master at 11th level it gets even better.
Unsanctioned Knowledge lets you pick one spell of levels 1 through 4 from the Bard, Cleric or Inquisitor spell list and add them to the Paladin spell list, so just grab some goodies like Mirror Image and you shouldn't miss the Bard level.
Effective isn't the goal as much as "not suck" :) so I can take a fair bit of disadvantages with the build as long as it doesn't cripple me to much. I mainly just really like the image of a scimitar wielding paladin in light armor (well, medium armor made light in this case...). In this case that trumps effective :)
Why the level of Bard? Paladins aren't particularly feat starved, especially if they are Human. I would suggest straight paladin with the following feats, since you are starting at level 9:
1) Weapon Finesse and Fey Foundling
3) Dervish dance
5) Power Attack (min STR: 13)
7) Weapon Focus: Scimitar (optional, as your attack stat (DEX) is pretty high)
9) Improved Critical: Scimitar
I started out with a full paladin in the beginning. After checking some of the similar threads on this forum I saw some builds with the "Dawnflower Dervish" archtype added in and thought it looked cool. I really like that addition because it raises the characters skill levels significantly.
I'm wondering if I should go for more strength in order to get the power attack feat...
Hero's defiance can kill you. I have twice seen it heal for about 10-15 HP, then leave the paladin in melee with something that is about to do 30+ damage. Two paladins died this way
Wouldn't they have died either way?
To the OP, if you have dervish dance form the bard archetype I don;t think you need weapon finesse, Similarly, if you're using the scimitar for the combat maneuvers you don't need agile maneuvers. Not sure which maneuvers you're using though. If you want more rounds of battle dance there's the society trait that gives you 3 extra rounds of bardic performance too.
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Hero's defiance can kill you. I have twice seen it heal for about 10-15 HP, then leave the paladin in melee with something that is about to do 30+ damage. Two paladins died this wayWouldn't they have died either way?
I think the point he's making is that they would've gone unconscious without it. With it, they got killed outright.
Fair, but the extra action gained from remaining conscious could be used to withdraw. I guess it depends on when you use it.
I would try to get fireball as a 3rd level spell via unsanctioned knowledge, arguing that an oracle of flame would get the spell. By level 10 it really isn't an overpowered spell esp when casting it at level -3. But, it's really flavorful. Use the human favored class bonus to get +9 resistance to fire and cast fireballs at point blank.
I would also take hospitaler archetype to represent healing as much as possible. Taking selective channel to utilize it in combat.
I would totally have my scimitar be flaming for flavor reasons.
I personally am not fond of power attack for paladins, they either are not smiting in which case the loss of hit chance is enough to outweigh the damage bonus or they are smiting in which case the additional damage doesn't feel significant. Your experience might be different but that it is what mine has been.
I have zero experience with Paladins, hence this thread :) Since it would take some weakening on either int or con (which I’m not very willing to do) I’m going to skip it.
To the OP, if you have dervish dance form the bard archetype I don;t think you need weapon finesse, Similarly, if you're using the scimitar for the combat maneuvers you don't need agile maneuvers. Not sure which maneuvers you're using though. If you want more rounds of battle dance there's the society trait that gives you 3 extra rounds of bardic performance too.
I’ve removed Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers. Weapon finesse vanished when I found out that I couldn’t use Piranha Strike with the scimitar. Agile Maneuvers vanished when I realized that it only affected my offense. I thought that the CMD was calculated from my str bonus and didn’t want that to be a target. But since it’s derived from dex I don’t need it.
I would try to get fireball as a 3rd level spell via unsanctioned knowledge, arguing that an oracle of flame would get the spell. By level 10 it really isn't an overpowered spell esp when casting it at level -3. But, it's really flavorful. Use the human favored class bonus to get +9 resistance to fire and cast fireballs at point blank.
I would also take hospitaler archetype to represent healing as much as possible. Taking selective channel to utilize it in combat.
I would totally have my scimitar be flaming for flavor reasons.
I’ve been using the favored bonus to boost my skill points. Is that a waste?
My first iteration had a flaming scimitar, but I have since removed it (can’t remember why). But it is indeed flavorful. It should be put back in.
When ever I see a melee heavy character with a 10 STR I like to see a breakdown of what the character is carrying and how heavy it is. As it's so easy to become encumbered.
The Traits you've picked might be in the 'Theme' of your character. They don't really bring any real benefits to you. There's a number of other good traits out there that you can choose that can still match your 'theme'.
I like the ambassador trait because it boosts my Diplomacy. What traits would you suggest that I take?
0lb dawnflower sash
12.5lb +3 mithril agile breastplate
4lb +2 scimitar
0lb amulet of natural armor +2
1lb belt of incredible dexterity +2
1lb cloak of resistance +1
1lb headband of alluring charisma +2
0lb ring of protection +1total weight 19.5 lbs / 13.5lb free before carrying a medium load.
I'd ditch the cloak of resistance, +1 to saves is kinda meaningless to a paladin getting +11 to all saves from charisma on top of immunity to fear, disease and charm.
Consider it dropped!
I’ve been using the favored bonus to boost my skill points. Is that a waste?
My first iteration had a flaming scimitar, but I have since removed it (can’t remember why). But it is indeed flavorful. It should be put back in.
It's certainly not a waste, either of the 3 choices is fine. I was just trying to give your paladin as much of a fire theme as possible. You get resist energy as a level 2 spell so you really don't need a base fire protection.
A +2 scimitar is typically better than a +1 flaming. Also as a paladin you can enhance your weapon to give it flaming if you want. Again my suggestion was just for flavor.
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(stuff)
Since you're parachuting in at 9th, you can make a nice, crunchy DEX build that skips those horrible low level annoyances. Oh, and sack wisdom because you absolutely do not need it as a higher level paladin.
(25pt-buy at creation)
STR:08 (-2)
DEX+17 (8) (bump 4th)
CON:14 (5)
INT:14 (5)
WIS:07 (-4)
CHA:17 (13) (bump 8th)
...at 8th, with +2 items, both DEX and CHA are 20.
I’ve removed Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers. Weapon finesse vanished when I found out that I couldn’t use Piranha Strike with the scimitar.
Why? -- As a paladin, you're going to do a ton of damage even without booster feats; so much so that you may very well not want the penalties (even if average DPR might be higher on paper, the realities on any given situation often require dropping a limping monster now as opposed to reaching for overkill). Dervish Dance is particularly good if you can get it without
But the important thing I'm taking from this is that, if Piranha was on the table, then some non-CRB/APG material is permitted, in which case, go for the Dawnflower Dervish out of Inner Sea Magic. -- They get Dervish Dance without Weapon Finesse (so you save a feat).
IOW, you get to play the ultimate champion of Sarenrae along the lines you'd initially wanted to play.
Traits: Dangerously Curious, Reactionary
01 pala1 Quick Draw, Fey Foundling
02 bard1 Dervish Dance
03 pala2 Extra Performance
04 pala3 DEX>18
05 pala4 Greater Mercy
06 pala5 [Weapon Bond]
07 pala6 Improved Initiative
08 pala7 CHA>18
09 pala8 Improved Critical:Scimitar
Feat rationales: Fey and Mercy to supercharge LoH (and pave way for Ultimate Mercy), Extra Performance because those Battle Dance rounds will run out quick, Quick Draw because the build requires lots of move actions and one-handed weapon use; also lets you full-attack chuck daggers at a ranged opponent (why let +10 numeric bonuses to damage from Battle Dance and Smite go to waste, especially if you're hasted?).
Weapons: scimitars: (you'll want adamantine, silver, cold-iron and normal -- not reason not to with Weapon Bond doing the heavy lifting; besides, curvy swords are your thing). Efficient Quiver (because we can put sharp things in it), mithril buckler, mithril agile breastplate, wands of Longstrider, Scorching Ray, weapon cords
Tactics: explore carrying wand of Scorching Ray in "off" hand & UMD in surprise rounds.