Concerning Pax in the Land Rush

The majority does not get to determine our understanding of the rules.

... the OP... was never actually about what was good for the community but more about how to handicap a potential rival.

I'm very curious who you think wrote the OP if you're so convinced it's a rival and not someone genuinely interested in the good of the community. My personal guess is that it is someone who is no one's rival at all, and who has every reason to be extremely concerned about the good of the community.

We acted on our understanding. Objection was raised. Clarification was given. We complied.

You left out the part where "those objecting were viciously attacked and intimidated".

Even still, please look at this current situation in the same light. Objections are being raised. Seek clarification - not in a new ruling which, were it made by Goblinworks, will forever put Goblinworks into adversarial conflict with the largest Guild currently in the game.

Ask yourself who has the most to gain from Golgotha leaving the landrush?

I have nothing to gain by Golgotha withdrawing from the Land Rush other than the possibility that the community will self-police when it comes to organizations that attempt to turn PFO into a game where "everything that is not forbidden is permitted".

A little birdy sent me the complete list of Golgotha's priorities in the Land Rush. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Golgotha will have a Settlement of its own long before we would ever come into any conflict regardless of how this turns out. Unless Golgotha seriously changes their priority list, the only spot I would really worry about is 10th on their list.

The reason I'm holding them accountable for this is because I see what Ryan's warning us about. Goblinworks can't get into conflict with Pax about this, that's why Ryan practically begged Rawn to seriously consider the ramifications of running Golgotha as a second entry before he did so.

While I'm not gonna chime in on the actual topic I need to say this.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY AND GOOD, for the good of your own sanity please do not try to engage in debate by proxy as a surrogate for GW.

Can you imagine how toxic the game would be if all the hate and intimidation, all the veiled and not-so-veiled insectsinsults and threats were directed at the folks who work at Goblinworks instead of just another member of the community?

The community would likely be stronger. Instead, GW has chosen to let the community act as its angry mob in this case, and seems to be feeding some slightly more ego-driven members of the community to call down judgement for them.

The only way this witch hunt you're on will succeed is if you call for a vote from the community, and you get a majority consensus. And best of luck doing that.

First, I want to make very clear that I speak from my own conscience. I'm not conveying T7V's position, or the Roseblood Accord's. In fact, it is very likely that a large number of people in those groups vehemently disagree with what I'm saying.

Thats fine and all... But you are the spokes mouth for T7V and the RoseBlood Accord.

Perception and all here.

You speak for the two groups. So your opinions are the words of both groups. You should have thought of that before posting. Both groups should think about it a bit.

... Golgotha has every right to be in the landrush. They were a separate entity before ever joining Pax, and never would have joined in the way they had they known how LR2 was to be run...

I thought this, too. But this is another issue that's right there in the OP. Golgotha joined Pax when they could have formed another Settlement in the first Land Rush, and chose not to.

While Goblinworks is at fault for not organizing or explaining the first Land Rush well, Golgotha joined Pax and gave them their votes. They decided to join Pax instead of going for their own settlement, I do not see them as being entitled to go for a settlement now. The Second Land Rush should not be treated as a second chance. They made their decision, they should stick with it.

@Bluddwolf and Andius: Contrary to what you may believe, Nihimon is not motivated by fear, but by principles.

I'm just going to hop in here and make sure this is very clear. Anybody who thinks this is a strategic move by Nihimon must be a very bad strategist. Nihimon and Decius are and always have been guided by unwavering principles, sometimes to a fault.

The strategists wanted to leave this thread a long time ago.

Lhan wrote:

... Golgotha has every right to be in the landrush. They were a separate entity before ever joining Pax, and never would have joined in the way they had they known how LR2 was to be run...

I thought this, too. But this is another issue that's right there in the OP. Golgotha joined Pax when they could have formed another Settlement in the first Land Rush, and chose not to.

He Who Shall Not Be Named wrote:

While Goblinworks is at fault for not organizing or explaining the first Land Rush well, Golgotha joined Pax and gave them their votes. They decided to join Pax instead of going for their own settlement, I do not see them as being entitled to go for a settlement now. The Second Land Rush should not be treated as a second chance. They made their decision, they should stick with it.

Um, the first land rush took place before I made an account here.

Golgotha joined Pax after I was active here.

The strategists wanted to leave this thread a long time ago.

You can say that again, all this posturing and flexing going on and at the time being there is no accountable way resolve the fracture. I'm just happy to know that Nihimon is willing to stand up to all the harassment.

...

When you instead take a vote mainly voted on people who have done nothing more than join your group and sit back while that one individual did a bare minimum of 50% of all of the work by himself, that person may rightfully get VERY pissed. Especially when he feels that in doing so you have made all his efforts over the past two years count for nothing.

I don't believe principled individuals would do such a thing. As Bluddwolf said, he will steal your gold but not something you've poured your heart and soul into. Some thieves have standards.

I don't believe any honest individual can say that TEO would exist, have reached the success it has, or have stayed alive the past two years without the incredible ammount of effort I poured into it. I find it very hard to believe you can't see any wrongdoings in your actions when you recognize that.

Holy hell... are you seriously still crying about this? Aren't you the one trying to say how tough you are in your recruitment thread? If you are so tough, why don't you just man-up and move on.

Nobody 'took' TEO from you. If you wanted to have your opinion taken more seriously, maybe you shouldn't have resorted to threats and name-calling. If you had only played your cards better and objectively backed up your opinions instead of freaking out, you would not even be in this situation.

T7V Avari wrote:

The strategists wanted to leave this thread a long time ago.

You can say that again, all this posturing and flexing going on and at the time being there is no accountable way resolve the fracture. I'm just happy to know that Nihimon is willing to stand up to all the harassment.

Are you happy he is doing the harassing as well?

unwavering principles

LOL, what he is doing is no better then what most of you accuse me of.

He is Ryan's sycophant and nothing more. Look at the way he posts whenever Ryan shows up somewhere.

At no time was UNC ever a part of Pax...

Was UNC named "Pax UNC"?

For the purposes of this Land Rush, Pax is one Guild. Pax Golgotha should withdraw from the Land Rush and apply their votes to Pax Aeternum.

Bluddwolf wrote:

At no time was UNC ever a part of Pax...

Was UNC named "Pax UNC"?

Did UNC recruits have an application process on paxgaming.com?
Did members of other Pax "divisions" interact with UNC recruits during their application process?
Did Rawn, the leader of Pax Gaming, approach the other Land Rush Phase 1 Winners about putting UNC in Phase 2 of the Land Rush?

For the purposes of this Land Rush, Pax is one Guild. Pax Golgotha should withdraw from the Land Rush and apply their votes to Pax Aeternum.

So what your saying is... They approached you previously about this topic, and NOW you are throwing a hissy fit.

Makes sense

So what is being proposed here by Nihimon is a punishment to large gaming communities. He not only demands that they only have one settlement, but individual player characters are being told they have to chose between having a settlement or not having one.

The vast majority of all the players who will ever play PFO will not have a Settlement from the Land Rush. And I didn't propose it, Ryan made it clear that Guilds should only have one entry on the Land Rush, and made it clear that he believes "large gaming communities" will always be viewed as a single guild by objective third parties.

The advantage Pax has by being the single largest organization in PFO right now is that they have the manpower and the organization and the sense of shared purpose to easily take their own Settlement the honorable way.

Why were the Pax folk voting for each other? Probably for the same reason I was initially tempted to vote for settlements I didn't plan to join, like Forgeholm or Last Embrace: For varied reasons, I want those settlements in the game.

Not being a member of one of the three guilds that won a Settlement in the First Land Rush, you have been encouraged to do exactly that by Ryan and Lee. Your situation is very specifically different than Pax's.

I don't know about any funny business and I don't really care. What I suggest people do is consolidate all the smaller guilds into the Guilds that have a legitimate chance of getting a good settlement. I think there is like 104 Guilds, but isn't there only like 33 settlement hexes?

It is not in the spirit of the rules to force a company to join a settlement that was founded by a metaguild they belong to,and bar them from joining any settlement they want.

I think the answer to this is in Ryan's insistence that the Land Rush is "for Guilds", not for Companies or Settlements, because it's clear that some Guilds will have a number of Settlements. Ryan's request was that Members of the Guilds that won Phase 1 should only vote for the same Guild in Phase 2.

Lhan wrote:

... Golgotha has every right to be in the landrush. They were a separate entity before ever joining Pax, and never would have joined in the way they had they known how LR2 was to be run...

I thought this, too. But this is another issue that's right there in the OP. Golgotha joined Pax when they could have formed another Settlement in the first Land Rush, and chose not to.

Although I'm not sure of the exact sequence, did Golgotha join Pax Gaming, before or after it was declared the first Land Rush was not going to be used?

Then there may also have been the legitimate issue of the forum interface not allowing new entries with the same ease as there is now. If the UNC had seen an easy interface, we would have included ourselves in the first Land Rush.

Golgotha entered Pax Gaming as a separate entity. It used its own section of the TS, as a separate entity. It entered Pax Gaming with the purpose of forming its own settlement. The game mechanics requires separate settlements to form a nation. This alone makes it clear, the separation was intended. The OP does not address that fact, and it is the most important.

No one can make the credible claim that Golgotha has not been, nor is it not now, a separate entity / settlement.

I do not agree with Nihimon on the matter. I think that there was indeed a problem with PAX's perception of the rules, but it was addressed by Hobs, and I have no desire to see Golgotha out.

But it is still obvious that UNC's participation in this thread is nothing more than coprophagia. Don't feed it.

Bluddwolf wrote:

At no time was UNC ever a part of Pax...

Was UNC named "Pax UNC"?

Did UNC recruits have an application process on paxgaming.com?
Did members of other Pax "divisions" interact with UNC recruits during their application process?
Did Rawn, the leader of Pax Gaming, approach the other Land Rush Phase 1 Winners about putting UNC in Phase 2 of the Land Rush?

For the purposes of this Land Rush, Pax is one Guild. Pax Golgotha should withdraw from the Land Rush and apply their votes to Pax Aeternum.

No, Golgotha should perhaps withdraw from Pax Gaming if this is the case, and they remain in the Land Rush.

Ryan also said that they should not vote for a group / settlement unless they intend to play with them. Golgotha would be denied a vote for a settlement or they would have to vote for a settlement that does not match its needs.

Either way it is punishing them for the vagueness of the system.

Notmyrealname wrote:

It is not in the spirit of the rules to force a company to join a settlement that was founded by a metaguild they belong to,and bar them from joining any settlement they want.

I think the answer to this is in Ryan's insistence that the Land Rush is "for Guilds", not for Companies or Settlements, because it's clear that some Guilds will have a number of Settlements. Ryan's request was that Members of the Guilds that won Phase 1 should only vote for the same Guild in Phase 2.

Pax was a guild before the landrush was invented , the other participants in the landrush were not. The term guild has a unique meaning for just the landrush and these landrush guilds will no longer exist when EE begins. They will be settlements with companies. Pax will still be a meta guild however so trying to squeeze PAX into the mold of a landrush guild is just causing problems.

If Golgotha was smart and/or sneaky they could have withdrawn and then taken control of a small settlement during EE , it comes out the same. One huge Pax settlement with 1000 members is more scary to me than spreading them around. We have 33 settlements and EE will ramp up to 20k players in 3 to 4 months , do we want mega-settlements in EE?

... these landrush guilds will no longer exist when EE begins.

These Guilds will exist as long as they want. They just won't matter to Goblinworks, because the only things that matter inside PFO are Nations, Settlements, and Companies. The Land Rush is special, and has very clear restrictions for the Guilds that won Phase 1.

But it is still obvious that UNC's participation in this thread is nothing more than coprophagia. Don't feed it.

Our participation in this thread has, for each of us within the UNC, been individual choice and feelings. Some folks see something they think wrong in terms of Golgotha and Aeternum each having a settlement, and voiced their opinions. Some other folks, myself included, disagree with the first group, and are voicing their opinion on the matter. I definitely don't see where eating feces comes into the mix of any of this, though.

No one can make the credible claim that Golgotha has not been, nor is it not now, a separate entity / settlement.

Yeah, no. Golgotha is very clearly Pax. Roseblood is very clearly separate entities.

The fact that the bulk of the community believes Golgotha deserves a mulligan is just that, a judgement by the community to allow Golgotha to be a special case.

Bluddwolf wrote:

I don't think that the stench of fear in this thread can be adequately washed off, until T7V and its members step out of this RESOLVED ISSUE.

Again, I want to make very clear that I speak from my own conscience. I'm not conveying T7V's position, or the Roseblood Accord's. In fact, it is very likely that a large number of people in those groups vehemently disagree with what I'm saying.

But if I hadn't spoken out here, when all of this had supposedly already been "resolved", then Pax would still be instructing their members to vote for Pax Golgotha regardless of which "division" they planned to play with.

The reason I'm holding them accountable for this is because I see what Ryan's warning us about. Goblinworks can't get into conflict with Pax about this, that's why Ryan practically begged Rawn to seriously consider the ramifications of running Golgotha as a second entry before he did so. Can you imagine how toxic the game would be if all the hate and intimidation, all the veiled and not-so-veiled insectsinsults and threats were directed at the folks who work at Goblinworks instead of just another member of the community? I have no doubt that all that hate and condemnation servers as a powerful warning to anyone else in the community that might feel the same way that they shouldn't speak up, or they'll face the same treatment.

I wish I'd seen all this more clearly in the beginning. Perhaps Rawn would have had second thoughts if he'd faced strong opposition at that time. But I let my personal feelings get in the way. I kept re-reading the OP looking for clues as to who wrote it, and I realized that the OP is 100% truth. I wish I'd had the clarity, the experience and insight, to make that case myself, but I didn't.

The last issue I challenged Pax on, where they eventually admitted they were wrong and took actions to correct it, was right there in the OP, but they utterly ignored it, and they attacked me viciously for daring to hold them accountable. I don't gain any advantage (other than continued hope that this community won't degenerate into every guild taking every advantage they can get unless there's a specific rule against it, which then puts them into constant conflict with Goblinworks instead) by doing this. In fact, I probably will pay a very heavy price for it. I probably won't ever know how many folks actually support what I'm doing, but I know anyone who speaks up and says so has got to be as insane as I am for bringing down that much hate on themselves. But I would ask you - especially Members of Pax - to look at the OP objectively, and think about Ryan's warnings about the likely effects of "breaking this taboo".

The truth is that this issue is also right there in the OP, and it's clear as day to any objective third party.

Pax is one Guild. Golgotha should withdraw from the Land Rush.

I really hope members of Pax read this and hold their Guild to the standards they profess.

Bluddwolf wrote:

No one can make the credible claim that Golgotha has not been, nor is it not now, a separate entity / settlement.

Yeah, no. Golgotha is very clearly Pax. Roseblood is very clearly separate entities.

The fact that the bulk of the community believes Golgotha deserves a mulligan is just that, a judgement by the community to allow Golgotha to be a special case.

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

How can we negotiate peace? The simple solution is that Golgotha withdraw from Pax until after the land rush and then re-join them. Wait that will only leave us right where we are now. Oh well, the devil you know is better then the devil you don't and all that......

Here are the facts as I see them, and I might be biased because I am part of a smaller guild whose spot in the land rush might be taken by Golgotha. Golgotha will be in the land rush regardless of all the bickering and name calling on everyone's side.

1) Pax and Golgotha joined forced for a strategic advantage of numbers. They looked at all the advantages and made the choice to join forces.

2) Now that they are one guild they do not like the fact that one of the disadvantages "should be" they start off with one settlement.

3)GW is not going to enforce this issue because both Pax and Gogotha are strong supporters of PFO before they became one unit and after they became one unit.

4) The CEO of GW has already said that they will not get in the middle of this issue.

5) Pax has already said they will have 2 settlements and I do not think anything will change their mind on this.

6) Will other large guild start to do the same? Probably.

7) Can we stop this from happening? Nope.

Did I miss anything? Why are we all still kicking this dead horse? Pax wins - Smaller guilds lose, survival of the fittest and all... PFO is going to be awesome regardless of Pax getting an unfair advantage.

No, Golgotha should perhaps withdraw from Pax Gaming if this is the case, and they remain in the Land Rush.

It is all about perception, but you have hit on something. Golgotha leaves Pax for 2 months and then rejoins , it comes out the same but it 'fits' the rules.

What is to stop another EE settlement from joining Pax (not Golgotha) , trying to hold back a metaguild by telling them you are the same as some small group of players from 1 game is not 'real'.Pax could gain more settlements in EE because people want to join, are they going to be forbidden to do that?

Like it or not ,it is Pax who are the leader here in deciding what metaguilds can do in PFO.

They did not join forces for the strategic advantage of numbers.

They joined forces to have a PVP based settlement and a trade based settlement.

The smaller guilds lose no matter what, they will not likely have their settlements long after OE. They will not be able to hold them.

Golgotha has legitimate 59 votes, those people would vote for Golgotha no matter what. In fact there are Golgotha members that voted for Aternum in the first land rush, and their votes are still with Aternum.

Honestly, if you guys keep pushing this... They will dissolve Golgotha and join the UNC. How does that sound? That will put us in a position to pick any settlement in the game, and I bet you would not like that. (no, no Golgothan has said this, but I bet they would consider if if they have to close their settlement slot)

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

Separate websites, separate private forums, separate voting structures, separate meta game guilds. No common military, no common diplomacy, not even a promise to form in game nations.

I thought you guys had some lawyers in there, jeezus lawd you all SUCK as lawyers, just a bunch of rabid dogs go back to your cages!

The only thing in question here is that despite the fact that Nihimon is technically 100% correct, this thread offers AMPLE evidence that the COMMUNITY believes Pax Golgotha is a special case to the rules.

I personally, and have been asked to say this by several Roseblood Accord members, wish to see this thread ended. Not because Nihimon is wrong, he most certainly is in the right. But because Ryan Dancey himself has said that this community should police itself and in THIS CASE, the community has voted against the letter of the law and wishes Golgotha to remain in the Land Rush.

Xeen wrote:

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

Separate websites, separate private forums, separate voting structures, separate meta game guilds. No common military, no common diplomacy, not even a promise to form in game nations.

I thought you guys had some lawyers in there, jeezus lawd you all SUCK as lawyers, just a bunch of rabid dogs go back to your cages!

The only thing in question here is that despite the fact that Nihimon is technically 100% correct, this thread offers AMPLE evidence that the COMMUNITY believes Pax Golgotha is a special case to the rules.

I personally, and have been asked to say this by several Roseblood Accord members, wish to see this thread ended. Not because Nihimon is wrong, he most certainly is in the right. But because Ryan Dancey himself has said that this community should police itself and in THIS CASE, the community has voted against the letter of the law and wishes Golgotha to remain in the Land Rush.

The only evidence is that T7V and some TEO members do not like it. I do not see a greater community here.

As for lawyers... You say you have all this separation in the foreground... but in the background I bet its all different. Are you going to tell me that if the UNC invades Brighthaven that the others will not rush to their aid?

6) Will other large guild start to do the same? Probably.

No. Other large guilds will proxy vote smaller ones that agree to their "accord." Nihimon already admitted it prior and has since edited that post. But Cyclops Face saw, as well as plenty of others. That point is still unclear. Can Nihimon come in an unequivocally say that Veil has not given any votes to any other settlement in the Accord? Because before it seemed like he admitted it and then edited it denying everything, then he edited it again for a further explanation. That would be great to get some clarity on that. It's funny because I'm a free agent and don't have a horse in this game, but I've been watching this for awhile. Cyclops Face frowns.

All this has done is moved everything into the shadows. Misdirection is key and those paying attention know exactly what that ultimately means.

Xeen wrote:

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

Separate websites, separate private forums, separate voting structures, separate meta game guilds. No common military, no common diplomacy, not even a promise to form in game nations..

You expect us to believe that if there is a mutual benefit for creating a kingdom / nation, the Accord would not form one up immediately?

Of course you will, that is the plan, because it is the most efficient way to ensure mutual benefit.

They did not join forces for the strategic advantage of numbers.

They joined forces to have a PVP based settlement and a trade based settlement.

Yes, you are right - of course it means the same "strategic advantage of numbers".

The smaller guilds lose no matter what, they will not likely have their settlements long after OE. They will not be able to hold them.

True - but it would be fun for the smaller guild to try and keep there settlement. Now my guild (or another smaller guild) will not even have the chance find out.

Golgotha has legitimate 59 votes, those people would vote for Golgotha no matter what. In fact there are Golgotha members that voted for Aternum in the first land rush, and their votes are still with Aternum.

Honestly, if you guys keep pushing this... They will dissolve Golgotha and join the UNC. How does that sound? That will put us in a position to pick any settlement in the game, and I bet you would not like that. (no, no Golgothan has said this, but I bet they would consider if if they have to close their settlement slot)

I agree, like I said the Devil you know and all that...

As for lawyers... You say you have all this separation in the foreground... but in the background I bet its all different. Are you going to tell me that if the UNC invades Brighthaven that the others will not rush to their aid?

UNC? I'll bet a gold piece the answer is yes because almost everybody hates your trolling guts.

Anybody else, especially Pax? Much, much more complicated. The answer is definitely NOT a resounding yes.

As for lawyers... You say you have all this separation in the foreground... but in the background I bet its all different. Are you going to tell me that if the UNC invades Brighthaven that the others will not rush to their aid?

If you saw your friend getting mugged would you not rush to their aid if you could help them?

Roesblood members are not obligated to support each other, they are obligated to promote positive gameplay. And to clarify, "Positive Gameplay" does not equate to "Meaningful Gameplay."

T7V Avari wrote:

Xeen wrote:

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

Separate websites, separate private forums, separate voting structures, separate meta game guilds. No common military, no common diplomacy, not even a promise to form in game nations..

You expect us to believe that if there is a mutual benefit for creating a kingdom / nation, the Accord would not form one up immediately?

Of course you will, that is the plan, because it is the most efficient way to ensure mutual benefit.

If you want to take this up in the Roseblood thread, again, be my guest.

Roseblood Accord gained the first Landrush, mixing votes wasn't possible, there is no point in the comparison between the RA and PAX. That's stupid.

There is no obligation for them to rush to our aid, no official arrangements committing them to the defense. Do I believe they would? Yes. But there are no promises to that end. There are far too many assumptions being made as to the nature of collaboration between organizations and too many false parallels being drawn based on those misconceptions. Perhaps some of the members within the group will formalize treaties to such ends in the future, but none exist at the moment.

As a note, I have said my portion and am withdrawing from this thread. I have nothing to add, and continuing to tell others that they have an incorrect understanding of the relationships between other groups is a futile effort. So I have nothing more to add.

To be clear, I understand the perception many have of Golgotha and Aeternum being the same group. However, I am personally supportive of the concessions Golgotha has made to rectify branding and Aeternum member votes to Golgotha.

No need to bring it up there... It will just be a lie for a response.

@Valkenr - Of course I would, anyone would and that is what I expect from you. The UNC asked to join the roseblood accord to promote positive game play... we withdrew because it was missed that the accord also promoted mutual benefit for its members.

... the COMMUNITY believes Pax Golgotha is a special case to the rules.

You know as well as I do that the community is much larger than the people who post on the forums. Are you sure there aren't guilds on the Land Rush looking at two Pax entries with the same website and thinking that means it's perfectly acceptable for a "large" guild to have as many entries as they can support with votes?

Because this thread has become so toxic I am requesting that GW just go ahead and lock this thread before it becomes worse.

Roseblood Accord gained the first Landrush, mixing votes wasn't possible, there is no point in the comparison between the RA and PAX. That's stupid.

Acting like there is no comparison is stupid. T7V and TEO have been working hand in hand since the first land rush. Nothing has changed since. Neither does anything official without the support of the other.

Other large guilds will proxy vote smaller ones that agree to their "accord." Nihimon already admitted it prior and has since edited that post.

Here's the post I "edited". I simply added a clearly marked "[Edit]" to clarify what I meant. I did not make any changes to the initial wording before the clearly marked "[Edit]".

T7V Avari wrote:

... the COMMUNITY believes Pax Golgotha is a special case to the rules.

You know as well as I do that the community is much larger than the people who post on the forums. Are you sure there aren't guilds on the Land Rush looking at two Pax entries with the same website and thinking that means it's perfectly acceptable for a "large" guild to have as many entries as they can support with votes?

We can't vote for people who don't show up to vote. You can't super impose opinions on people who have abstained for any reason. The voting on this issue has happened in this thread and in this thread I think it the message is pretty clear:

Yes you are right Nihimon, but the community has judged for Golgotha getting a settlement.

Can Nihimon come in an unequivocally say that Veil has not given any votes to any other settlement in the Accord?

Yes. We have made it clear on these forums, on our own forums, and in TeamSpeak chats with friends and allies. Our Member Application Forum is publicly visible. I invite anyone who's interested to check it out and see what we've been telling our new recruits.

I am with Nihimon on this, and I think it is despicable that he gets attacked for changing his opinion. This is a debate, the purpose of debate is to change opinions. What is the point of debate if everyone enters with their opinion set in stone?

The question is not: "Does Pax Golgotha deserve a settlement"

The question is: "Is Pax one guild"

It has nothing to do with how Golgotha became part of Pax it is about what things look like here and now. And right now, I see two Pax entries on the leaderboard.

There are a lot of guilds out there, just like Pax. They have thousands of members, and on occasion absorb other smaller guilds. Pax is not special in this respect.

If Golgotha is a solid division, they will get a settlement when they are officially released. They gained the advantages of joining a large guild. Why should they not also accept the consequences of losing their individual identity?

This talk of the 34th place not deserving the settlement is entirely beside the point. Settlements are meant to have Hundreds (with an 's') of members. And kingdoms are meant to have Thousands (with an 's') of members. By that scale, everyone here is equal, be it 10 or 100 members.

This is a beta, the point is testing. These are proto-settlements, not fully functioning settlements. If Golgotha is merged into Aeternum for the landrush, GW gets another group to beta test their settlements.

What I see is that the community has spoken, they see Pax as one guild. Ryan didn't ask if this was a special case, he asked a simple question: "is Pax one guild, or several?" and gave us two outcomes. Why Pax is a special case is beside the point, and one guild shouldn't be getting special treatment, that is a path that GW does not want to start down.

All apologies to Ryan, but he is the one that said the community should police itself and unless Goblinworks comes down and takes action themselves (which they said they won't), it's up to the community to do what WE THINK IS BEST. If Ryan wants to enforce a rule, he has the power to do it.

In this case, the overwhelming opinion is that YES, Pax Golgotha is part of Pax and that YES Golgotha should have a settlement anyways because they are a special case.

I'd guess that by far the most of us just want to have fun, and that unless settlements combine and start throwing their weight around in a way that makes it harder to have fun, we don't really care all that much who is "running" the settlements.

Yes, I'm sure many of us would like to have the opportunity to shape a settlement in the way we think best, and the presence of large groups is going to mess with that, regardless of which large/organized group it is.

Too bad for us. Life isn't fair. As long as organized entities resist the urge to spoil our fun, we'll live with it and keep paying to be part of the world.

I bet the vast majority of us don't care if any of you end up with multiple settlements, as long as we can pass through those settlements without it wrecking our day.