Bloodrager or Dragon Disciple?

[Eirikrautha]

Another thread pointed out to me the bloodrager from the upcoming ACG as an alternative to the dragon disciple. So was wondering if anyone has done a close look at the bloodrager from the playtest and compared it to the DD. Some questions I'd like some help with:

If I want a primarily beast/melee-focused character, am I better off with a martial character going into DD, or just going bloodrager from the beginning?

I know there is some question about whether bloodrager bloodlines (or is it rage/bloodrage) count the same as barbarian/sorcerer bloodlines, but I'm curious as to which will gain me abilities like flight earlier.

Just wondering if anyone has some advice as to which 20-point buy, PFS-legal, character concept will give me the best dragon-themed melee-centered (especially natural attacks) character.

Thanks!

[Renegadeshepherd]

I think the comparison between the two will mostly come down to what class features you were using. Barbarians have a few ways to get natural armor bonuses in addition to other AC boosters while they rage on top of strength. Paladin and anti paladin boosts to saves are also big. Monk of many styles offers big boosts. Here's the problem... These things are pretty much dips rather than having true synergy IMO. Plus the tax of having a level in arcane casting is just rough. Personally I think rager is better. The latest material trends towards more powerful so run with it.

BTW DD gets flight no sooner than level 14 unless you go full caster and get it with spells.

[Kiinyan]

Blood rager has a ton of cool perks. If this we're going past 12, then I'd say arcane bloodline blood rager. At 16th level literally every time they rage they get a free form of the dragon, along with other nice buffs like displacement or haste. This is. Truly mighty dragon warrior (and basically better than a DD at this level)

The arguably strongest dragon disciple build is the bard (or sorc I guess) paladin, so do you want to play the righteous dragon knight? Actually that sounds really cool. Sme kind of holy warrior imbued with divinity to fight as a dragon or something.

If wings are your thing, then DD simply wort work in PFS, as mentioned above. Some blood rager bloodlines get wings around 8 or 12.

[Samasboy1]

Assuming level 12 or under...

Even going something like Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1 will get the DD Fly as a Bloodline spell at 12th (Dragon Disciple 7).

The obvious comparison for a Bloodrager 12 would be something like Barbarian 4/Draconic Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 6.

There are many similarities, both have Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Bloodrager Bloodline powers vs Rage powers are pretty similar.

The big differences are that Bloodragers can cast while raging, and cast in medium/light armor. Dragon Disciple could use Bard or Summoner casting to qualify, and cast in armor, though it will delay Bloodline abilities.

The Dragon Disciple will have much better casting however, having 6/5/3 base spells per day compared to the Bloodrager's 2/2/1.

Dragon Disciple's can also be Crossblooded, with Orc for instance.

The Dragon Disciple has a higher natural armor bonus, since he can stack the bloodline ability with the boosts from the PrC. Its stat boosts are also a strong advantage.

Dragon Disciple probably won't get the breath weapon in the level limit of PFS.

The Bloodrager has full BAB, though this is less important with natural weapon attacks. But the Bloodrager claws are permanent, so more reliable if you want to use them as a main weapon.

Over all, the full BAB, permanent claws, breath weapon, cast while raging, cast in armor, and earlier flight probably tips this in Bloodrager favor.

[Samasboy1]

Kiinyan wrote:

Blood rager has a ton of cool perks. If this we're going past 12, then I'd say arcane bloodline blood rager. At 16th level literally every time they rage they get a free form of the dragon, along with other nice buffs like displacement or haste. This is. Truly mighty dragon warrior (and basically better than a DD at this level)

While free Blur and Haste are nice, the Draconic bloodline Bloodrager seems to have the better 16th level ability.

Draconic gets Form of the Dragon 2

Arcane gets Beast Shape 4 (probably losing spellcasting), Transformation (already full BAB, definitely loses spellcasting), or Form of the Dragon 1.

The Draconic bloodline gets Draconic Resistance (compare to Resist Energy) and Wings (Flight vs Haste).

[Kiinyan]

Unless I'm fighting something with true seeing I would take displacement over haste any day of the week. 50% miss chance basically negates the barbarian/bllodrager's normally weak AC, and I'd argue flat miss chance is superior to the AC of a dragon disciple.

Side note: I don't have the ACG in front of me, isn't the dragon bloodline form of the dragon a bonus spell, not an at will rage ability? It's just a bit more action economy and flexibility I guess, at the cost of being slightly weaker.

[gnoams]

You play a dragon disciple because you want to be a dragon. You play a bloodrager because you want to be a magical angry person. To me these aren't really the same theme, like, at all.

[Renegadeshepherd]

@Samasboy1 Unless I'm mistaken you can get breath weapon with improved eldritch heritage at level 11. BUT that assumes that you can still take dragon bloodline with said feat AKA non-sorcerer.

BTW: form of dragon 2 granted by DD is a TRAP!!! ::sorry for Ackbar moment::
If your goal is to be a best stick based on dragon form X above all else ur actually better just being a pure sorcerer with 4 levels of DD. form of dragon 3 is a VAST gain over drsgon form 2. Take a moment and put the two side by side and compare em. Go ahead ill wait... Does anyone else know a better increase of physical abilities in just 2 or 3 levels? Because of this fact alone I consider DD an overpowered prestige class for 4 levels and under powering after that.

I got to go with bloodrager. DD falls apart and you still have to account for your other 5-10 levels even when you've gone through it.

PS: a barbarian or synthesist will get bigger natural armor and strength bonuses for far less effort than a DD if this is what you seek OP.

[Samasboy1]

Kiinyan

Nope, whenever you rage, just like the Arcane bloodline, just better.

Displacement would be a really good effect, and would be effective, but overall I definitely would say the Draconic bloodline Bloodrager would be more effective in accomplishing the goal of being a "dragon warrior," wouldn't you?

RenegadeshepherdYes, you could take IEH but that isn't really relevant since anyone could do that, and the OP wanted comparisons between two classes.

And the FotD 2 is not from DD, it is from Dragon bloodline Bloodrager. A full BAB class getting FotD 2 every time he rages seems more effective that a 1/2 BAB class casting FotD 3 a couple times.

[Eirikrautha]

Wow, thanks for the advice. I'm mostly interested in the melee with a little bit of flexibility (and in PFS level-ranges), so it looks like bloodrager it is. You guys have been very helpful in me making up my mind! Off to roll a toon...

[LordMerlin]

I have a question. Is there any advantage in going 5 levels blood rager and then switch to dragon disciple?

[Belabras]

Not unless your GM allows the DD levels to advance your Bloodrager bloodline instead of the Sorc one.

[Chess Pwn]

well, you'll have a higher BAB then any other option.

[Avoron]

There are some nice advantages. So say you're a Bloodrager 5/Dragon Disciple 4 with the draconic bloodline. You get claws and a bite (if I'm interpreting the phrase "uses his bloodline to grow claws" correctly) whenever you are in a rage, and you can sometimes use them out of a rage too. The natural armor/energy resistance from your two bloodlines don't stack, but you can take the Primalist archetype to switch out that Bloodrager bloodline power for two rage powers, one of which could be Fiend Totem for a gore attack to go with your others. In terms of race, Suli or Human could work well with this, but I'd personally suggest Ragebred Skinwalker for the total of 7 natural attacks. You would have a +8 base attack bonus and a +3 natural armor bonus. You could easily have a strength of 22-24 when not in rage or using any magic items, and you could cast second level Bloodrager spells. Oh, and you'd have a breath weapon in case you need it.