Ok, I expected some shenanigans when my caster asked to research the spell Fabricate. After all, he is prone to doing fairly insane things at every opportunity. However last night, as my guys were fighting the BBEG at the end of the Stones over Sandpoint encounter in RotRL, he kind of caught me by surprise.
The exact phrasing he used was "I use the Fabricate spell to encase the giant in stone."
So I rush to the SRD, and start looking at the rules thinking, "there has to be a rule for this... something." No save. No SR. "Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell," I tell him. "Oh I am not casting it on him, but rather the stones under his feet." uhh... he has got me there. "You don't have any appropriate craft skill, how can you work stone like that," I ask. "Oh, I don't need it to look good. It can look like a child playing with playdoh for all I care, just so long as the stone is thick and encases him," he replies. I read some more, looking for an out from this conundrum that has no saving throw. "If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. That is not enough to encase a giant." I tell him, thinking I have got him. Ok, fine, I just encase his feet and attach them to the stones below." Well, I suppose I should be grateful that he did not encase the giants head in an orb of stone. I decide to allow it this time as a reward for creative use of spell mechanics, this time at least. I adjudicate it like an entangle and move on, saying that I will research it further tomorrow.
So, it is now tomorrow. I searched through a few pages of posts on these boards and found no one else who used this in the same way. Some other players have used it to damage structures, like bridges, upon which bad guys were standing, however no where have I found accounts of people who have used it as a direct weapon. Please help me figure out how to adjudicate this in the future (because I am sure I will have to lol).
The substance being "fabricated" is the material component of the spell, and as such has to be in the caster's possession at the time of casting. So you can't transmute the stone under someone else's feet.
Not with the Fabricate spell, anyway.
. . . If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
. . .
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
I assume it takes one round (six seconds) per 1 cubic foot of mineral per level to cast. So casting is 2 rounds for 2 cubic feet and three rounds for three cubic feet and so on. It's an out of combat spell.
We all play differently and that is fine but in my game this guy would not have had any succes. At the very least tell him to clear this kind of crap with you in advance so he dosent disrupt the game with his gorgonzola.
Making form fitting Stone boots and fitting them to the Ground in a effective Way should be a craft(dwarwen footwere)DC 25 IMOP.
The substance being "fabricated" is the material component of the spell, and as such has to be in the caster's possession at the time of casting. So you can't transmute the stone under someone else's feet.
Not with the Fabricate spell, anyway.
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
I agree that it doesn't work, but I disagree with your reasoning.
Some things come to mind.
First: One cubic foot of material is not much to encase the feet of the giant with. The resulting construction would probably be pretty thin, considering how big the feet of the giant probably are. The ginat should be easily able to sunder the "shackles" in one round. Or he could just remain stationary if that is not a problem for him. The player essentially used up a 5th level slot for a one target, one round (assuming sunder) entangle with no save. That seems by no means overpowered to me.
If you compare it to stone shape, it could have been worse.
Second: The spell allows the player to fabricate an item, but how does he attach it to the ground below? The Item must be physically seperated from everything else, otherwise it would not be an item but a part of the bigger structure.
Third: Nowhere in the text of fabricate does it say that he can choose to move the location of the final product relative to the position of the raw materials. Therefor one could argue that the stone shackles are created where the stone was beforehand, UNDER the feet of the giant, not around them.
Fourth: The Spell has no SR or save, because it's not used on creatures or magic items. The giant isn't hit by the spell but by it's consequnces. Arguing that the giant doesn't get a save based on the fabricate spell is like arguing that you don't get to avoid a stone dropped on your head via mage hand because the spell doesn't have SR or a save.
Therefor it's your job to rule on the outcome. I'd give the giant a reflex save to step aside. Considering how you get a reflex save when a substantial part of the floor below your feet suddenly vanishes (see pit spell line) you should definitely get a save to avoid stone shoes being put on your feet.
You could always use the same principle as Wall of Stone, which allows you to try and trap creatures but permits a reflex save to dodge out of the way as the wall appears. Given that the casting time is a minimum of 1 round there's probably a hefty save bonus as well, even a lumbering giant could just step out of the way.
"The substance being "fabricated" is the material component of the spell, and as such has to be in the caster's possession at the time of casting," How do should we define being in the caster's possession? Does he have to be touching it? Would a pile of rocks the player is standing next to work? What about a stone wall the player is standing next to? What if the bad guy is also standing next to said pile of rocks or stone wall.
"I assume it takes one round (six seconds) per 1 cubic foot of mineral per level to cast. So casting is 2 rounds for 2 cubic feet and three rounds for three cubic feet and so on." This is good point, but one that he somewhat abused last night. I had the giant spend a round of attacks with the two mining picks he was wielding to break himself free, to which the player responded, "well I was not done encasing him so I continue the process of encasing him," effectively making it a continuous spell. I do not think I will allow that in the future, if I allow the spell in general to be used in such a manner.
"It's an out of combat spell. " Where does it say this spell can only be used out of combat? The caster was in air elemental body form floating above and out of range of the bad guy, so would that count?
"The spell should fail outright use this way as it duplicate totally another spell" it does not exactly duplicate wall of stone, TBH. One surrounds, and creates stone out of nothing. The other reforms material already existing to encase rather than surround. Splitting hairs perhaps, but they aren't even the same school of magic so, I think that alone is enough of a difference.
"allow a reflex save on giant, since that is what other entrapping spells, traps and special ability offer" I think this is good advice myself. If I am going to allow anything like this, it should have a saving through. Also, it should not be a save or die (i.e. encasing the head of the bad guy in stone.)
"Making form fitting Stone boots and fitting them to the Ground in a effective Way should be a craft(dwarwen footwere)DC 25 IMOP." I lawled. Thank you. But you make a good point, perhaps forming stone or other substances around a living enemy could be said to require a "requiring a high degree of craftsmanship" and thus require a craft check.
"One cubic foot of material is not much to encase the feet of the giant with." it is 1 cubic foot per level. Or 11 cubic feet in the case of my mage, probably enough for some giant sized granite booties.
"The Item must be physically seperated from everything else, otherwise it would not be an item but a part of the bigger structure" so you could not fabricate a bas-relief carving in a wall? I am not sure about this part.
"one could argue that the stone shackles are created where the stone was beforehand, UNDER the feet of the giant, not around them. " I think this is also a good point.
"I'd give the giant a reflex save to step aside" I think this is perhaps the best solution. Corvino makes a similar point below.
"You could always use the same principle as Wall of Stone, which allows you to try and trap creatures but permits a reflex save to dodge out of the way as the wall appears." Wall of stone is the same level as Fabricate. Yes I think that a Reflex save should apply. This still allows some leeway to the player to institute the rule of cool, while also allowing the bad guy a chance to evade and keeps the spell in line with other similar spells.
I assume it takes one round (six seconds) per 1 cubic foot of mineral per level to cast. So casting is 2 rounds for 2 cubic feet and three rounds for three cubic feet and so on.This is good point, but one that he somewhat abused last night. I had the giant spend a round of attacks with the two mining picks he was wielding to break himself free, to which the player responded, "well I was not done encasing him so I continue the process of encasing him," effectively making it a continuous spell. I do not think I will allow that in the future, if I allow the spell in general to be used in such a manner. . . .
He has to be at least 9th level to cast fabricate, so that's nine cubic feet over nine rounds. As Kalridian pointed out, giants have big feet. There's going to be plenty of time for the giant to feel the stone moving over his feet and before his feet are actually encased. I'd say if the giant takes his 5' step (is it still a 5' step for huge+ creatures?), it's an auto fail to entrap (this effect centered on the giant is 4.5 feet to the edge). If he wants fabricate as a combat spell, he needs to research a higher level version.
Furthermore, it's probably worth thinking about ways to break free if they are trapped. You could either say a strength check to break free, or attacking the encasing stone to destroy it.
Stone has hardness 8 and 15 HP per inch of thickness. A Power Attacking Giant will get through that pretty quickly. The DC to break through a Wall of Stone is 20 +2 per inch of thickness. Given that Giants have decent strength and get a +4 to the strength check as Large creatures this shouldn't be too much of a problem either.
This player might benefit from a little chat about the difference between innovative use of spells and attempting to spring surprises on the GM to break the game.
"One cubic foot of material is not much to encase the feet of the giant with." it is 1 cubic foot per level. Or 11 cubic feet in the case of my mage, probably enough for some giant sized granite booties.
Yes, but it still takes 11 rounds to make them.
"The Item must be physically seperated from everything else, otherwise it would not be an item but a part of the bigger structure" so you could not fabricate a bas-relief carving in a wall? I am not sure about this part.
No, you can... but that takes craft checks, or at least that has always been my understanding. I could be wrong here.
"I'd give the giant a reflex save to step aside" I think this is perhaps the best solution. Corvino makes a similar point below.
"You could always use the same principle as Wall of Stone, which allows you to try and trap creatures but permits a reflex save to dodge out of the way as the wall appears." Wall of stone is the same level as Fabricate. Yes I think that a Reflex save should apply. This still allows some leeway to the player to institute the rule of cool, while also allowing the bad guy a chance to evade and keeps the spell in line with other similar spells.
Fair enough. Transmute rock to mud and mud to rock, also at the same level, have reflex saves. However, since I think he can get out of the area of effect in one round and it takes 11 rounds to construct, no matter how crappy the character makes the stone encasing look, I still don't think the spell works quickly enough to trap a conscious npc.
The substance being "fabricated" is the material component of the spell, and as such has to be in the caster's possession at the time of casting. So you can't transmute the stone under someone else's feet.Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)I agree that it doesn't work, but I disagree with your reasoning.
"Range" is for the spell's effect though, not its components.
How do should we define being in the caster's possession?We don't, the rules already did that for us:
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any).
"Range" is for the spell's effect though, not its components.
So if you have the component material in your grasp, you can instantly create a fabricated object anywhere within forty feet? That sounds like it could be abused.
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Most open-ended spells can be abused in some way. And Fabricate is very open-ended.
That said, I see some dubious arguments and some good ones above.
"X duplicates the effect of another spell..." is not a solid argument. Lots of spells do things similar to one another. And simply, there's no rule that one spell can't achieve the same result as another spell. There's just no such rule.
"There's no spell that gives no save, no to-hit and no SR" - if you look long enough there probably is such a spell somewhere. I'm not saying that's good for balance, but it probably exists.
The good argument though - the casting time. Round 1 the wizard selects the target location, and later on the giant walks away from that spot. Fail.
OTOH, if the rest of the party can keep the giant in that spot for the entire casting time, that's epic and the wizard deserves to get away with it.
Te'Shen makes some excellent points about the amount of time it takes to craft these giant size boots. However, 1 cubic foot of stone would be more than enough to heavily affect the movement of a human sized character. And what if the objects being used are not mineral... what if the player used vegetable matter. 10 cubic feet a round could build a fairly insane wooden or plant (or ice even) structure around a human sized NPC.
VRMH points out that the player must be able to "manipulate the material components or focus (if any)." Would touching a block of stone, a log or a tree count? What if that log or block of stone were part of a wall? What if the stone itself was not a block but just the wall of a cave?
Matthew Downie points out potential issues with the range of the spell. The point has already been made that it can not be done "Instantly" but this is the crux of the issue I am trying to adjudicate.
The way I'd rule this:
1) The giant gets a Perception check to notice the stone underneath him changing (probably fairly low at DC 5 or 10, modified for conditions).
2) Any movement by the giant within the round ("1 round per 10 cubic feet" = "1 full round per 10 cubic feet;" i.e., no (measurable) effect until right before the caster's next action, as with summon monster/nature's ally spells) and the spell fails to form the stone around the giant's feet; this includes the giant taking a 5 ft step because he noticed the stone changing or if the giant moves for another reason. The spell does not contain wording on movement, so it can't "follow" the giant.
Pretty meh, compared to transmute rock to mud or even entangle (1st-level) or web (2nd-level) spells.
The way to get players to think through rules fairly: remind them that anything you do can and will be done by the npcs.
Granite weighs 165 lbs/cubic foot
Sandstone weighs 155 lbs/cu ft. (let's assume this given it's Sandpoint)
So, each giant's new stone shoe weighs 775 pounds. A stone giant has 27 strength, so that's a heavy load for each foot because large creatures have double carrying capacity. "A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action)."
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load.
Remember: giants throw rocks the size of their head for fun.
I would rule that the wizard could, after 11 rounds, impose an encumbrance penalty (denied dex bonus to AC, 5' move as a full round action).
So, not really an effective combat spell. But great for mafia spell casters who have prisoners who need to sleep with the fishes.
I like the way both of you think Dragonchess and RougeRogue. I think it may become more effective once the player thinks of using non-mineral materials rather than stone. Wood, ice, vines, leather, bone, whatever is available in large amounts. This would be enough to fully engulf a man sized character in two rounds. And what if instead of trying to encumber a giant with weight, you sought to encumber him with ... well... size. Give him giant clown shoes, or skis, cover his weapons with wooden sheathes, or his head in a wicker cage hindering his sight / hearing.
The giant could simply move out if the way. The spell requires a craft check, so what is the penalty to a craft check when a giant kicks the thing you are working on? It isn't about being pretty, it's about being anything at all after that -40 to your craft check for getting curb stomped by the giant you were trying to build your thing around.
Hypothetically, if the players finds a way to do the fabricate into stone manacles next time - stone has a hardness and hp per inch. There is also a break DC (treating the stone like a door).