Hi
I'm considering a TWF Barbarian type character. (Barbarian as the concept not necessarily the class).
I know that it's probably worse than a THW barbarian, but I'm ok with that, I don't think the difference is too huge.
Now obviously I want high Strength for damage and high Con for not getting killed, which means I don't really have too many points left for Dex.
Now, are there ways to get TWF without the insane Dex requirements?
- I know Rangers can pick it as a fighting style.
- I know I can start with 13 Dex and eventually get a +6 Dex belt and have enough for Greater TWF. Of course that means I won't have as much +Str or +Con which may be bad too.
Are there any other ways. Obscure classes/archetypes/feats/races? Paizo only though, nothing 3rd party.
Play a barbaric ranger?
don't worry about GTWF...the third attack will almost always miss...better to just get Improved and stop
Play a barbaric ranger?
Yep, actually only dipping a single level of Barbarian and taking Extra Rage, then staying full ranger seems the best way to go.
Kasatha and Multi-weapon fighting.
The downside of MWF: You have a lot of attacks right from the start for a cheap cost, but more weapons to enchant as the adventure goes.
Sidenote:
Sohei Monk with FoB and Light Armor (Mithril Breastplate or something)
Isn't the mithral breastplate still considered medium armor for things like that ? Damn, I can't remember.
Mithral is a rare, silvery metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it can be used to create amazing armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Use natural weapons rather than manufactured weapons?
Two claw attacks are pretty easy to get, and you would be wielding "two weapons."
Slayer, Ranger, Monk, and Brawler all get access to TWF without the prereqs(or an equivalent). None of those are barbarians though.
You might also consider asking nicely for a houserule.
Play a barbaric ranger?Yep, actually only dipping a single level of Barbarian and taking Extra Rage, then staying full ranger seems the best way to go.
Yes, that's definitely an option I'm considering. Either:
- dipping 2 levels of Ranger (but that only gives me TWF, may not be worth it),- taking 6 levels of Ranger and then full Barbarian again (might take 2 levels ranger for TWF first, then 2 Barbarian for the first rage power then 4 more Ranger for Imp TWF at level 8)
- or mostly Ranger and only a level or two into Barbarian as you said.
Natural weapons are a nice option too and maybe good mechanically, but I don't think it fits the flavor I got in mind.
Disadvantage of going Ranger, I won't be getting Double Slice, but then again the Favored Enemy should make up for it.
|
Play a barbaric ranger?Yep, actually only dipping a single level of Barbarian and taking Extra Rage, then staying full ranger seems the best way to go.Yes, that's definitely an option I'm considering. Either:
- dipping 2 levels of Ranger (but that only gives me TWF, may not be worth it),
- taking 6 levels of Ranger and then full Barbarian again (might take 2 levels ranger for TWF first, then 2 Barbarian for the first rage power then 4 more Ranger for Imp TWF at level 8)
- or mostly Ranger and only a level or two into Barbarian as you said.Natural weapons are a nice option too and maybe good mechanically, but I don't think it fits the flavor I got in mind.
Disadvantage of going Ranger, I won't be getting Double Slice, but then again the Favored Enemy should make up for it.
double slice isn't worth a feat. It's only value is that it's a prerequisite for two weapon rend. But rangers can take two weapon rend as a bonus feat.
Get the dex just high enough to qualify for the feats if you go straight barbarian. This might mean starting off with a higher dex, and having to plan out your attribute bumps in advance.
Yah, if you're only considering taking TWF at this point (and no other TWF feats), then I'd agree with Wraithstrike's suggestion. Start with your 15 in Dex, pick up TWF, go straight Barbarian.
I only suggested Ranger so you could get the other juicy TWF feats without needing high dex.
I could be wrong, but I think if you have readily available access to something, it can qualify as a prerequisite. I.E you can't get the fly skill unless you have some way of achieving flight, even if it's only for a limited time per day.
Based off this knowledge, you could look at the Urban Barbarian. They can control the effects of their rage between str, dex, and con. Boost dex, and you should be able to qualify for TWF while in rage.
|
I could be wrong, but I think if you have readily available access to something, it can qualify as a prerequisite. I.E you can't get the fly skill unless you have some way of achieving flight, even if it's only for a limited time per day.
Based off this knowledge, you could look at the Urban Barbarian. They can control the effects of their rage between str, dex, and con. Boost dex, and you should be able to qualify for TWF while in rage.
If I remember correctly, the rule on ability scores is that you need to have that ability score increased for 24 hours before that buff is considered "permanent" for the purposes of qualifying for feats. You would have to be raging for an entire day for that idea to work I think.
Also, as a Barbarian, I'd suggest picking up a double weapon. That way you can use it two handed when you can't full attack for the 1.5 STR bonus. Half-Orc, Dwarves, and Half-Elves (and Gnomes I guess) are great for this as they don't need to spend a feat to get a double weapon.
Personally, I'm fond of the dwarven barbarian idea. They can spend their favored class bonus to get extra rage rounds, and they get a racial bonus to con. Their movement can't be impeded by armor, and every barbarian I know of wants to get breastplate at some point. With the fast movement, your dwarven barbarian will be running around at 30ft instead of 20ft. You can drop your base wisdom and spend those points elsewhere, like strength, or dex.
If I remember correctly, the rule on ability scores is that you need to have that ability score increased for 24 hours before that buff is considered "permanent" for the purposes of qualifying for feats. You would have to be raging for an entire day for that idea to work I think.I could be wrong, but I think if you have readily available access to something, it can qualify as a prerequisite. I.E you can't get the fly skill unless you have some way of achieving flight, even if it's only for a limited time per day.
Based off this knowledge, you could look at the Urban Barbarian. They can control the effects of their rage between str, dex, and con. Boost dex, and you should be able to qualify for TWF while in rage.
That sounds right, I can't really remember though. If anything, GM's can houserule that if you meet the prerequisites at any point, you can use the feat. Otherwise, you've got a wasted feat slot just sitting there until you meet the prerequisites again.
Also, I believe I remember reading somewhere that if you no longer meet the prerequisites for a feat, you can't use that feat until you meet them again. Like if you lose a stat due to poison or something.
I'd say, that on a 20 point buy, going with a 16/16/14/10x3 is doable, and allows you to gain access to the 'good' TWF feats while still playing a strength build.
Those scores are accomplished, usually, by placing a 14 in the place were your race gets a bonus either to strength or dexterity. Finding a race that gives a bonus to either of these is not exactly hard. Just avoid any inconvenient penalties (Sorry halflings), and you will be fine.
You can also accomplish this with a dwarf, by putting all your points into strength and dex, and then getting the points to get your Con to an acceptable level by...dumping your wisdom by 2 points. I only suggest this because-you get a wisdom bonus which covers the damage, and I am uncomfortable with dumping CHA any further with your existing penalty to it. You might feel otherwise.
My main point is that a 16 starting DEX suffices. You then put your level 4 ability score adjustment into dex to get it to 17. Then you forget about it forever. I say this because Greater TWF is rather unreliable to the point of useless (as others have said), so that means that the highest prerequisite of the 'classic' TWF feats is 17 DEX. By following this path, you can get the feats you want, when you need them, without any particular hiccups from not having the right belt (since you want your second offhand iterative soon after getting your mainhand one, yes?).
And you are still a strength build with this approach. So buy that +X belt of strength, or whatever. And heck, maybe grab a double weapon (because those are awesome, since you could decide to use them as a 2handers for standard attacks), since you do not have to worry about whether it is a finessable weapon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a barbarian ranger archetype in ultimate combat. Not sure if its worth its tradeoffs but you could go straight ranger and get rage stuff
Think its called wild ranger or something
Wild Stalker. Trades out combat style.
Irony.
I don't get why Double slice isnt worth the feat, especially with a of str bonus of+3 out +5. You use s great for PA to get +3 damage for a -1 to attack. And with 24 str you get a +4 to damage on half your attacks Which isn't unreasonable. I'm looking at it for my basher Paladin cause a bash+1 versus pushing that up to a +3 makes the-2 to hit from TWF more worthwhile. Wrap spec is only a +2 and is a feat.
Yah, if you're only considering taking TWF at this point (and no other TWF feats), then I'd agree with Wraithstrike's suggestion. Start with your 15 in Dex, pick up TWF, go straight Barbarian.
I only suggested Ranger so you could get the other juicy TWF feats without needing high dex.
Well, I do want to eventually get a few of the other TWF feats.
iTWF at some point (not necessarily right at 6, but around 8 maybe).Double Slice to narrow the gap in damage a little, though now I get told it's not worth it. Maybe that's true, it's not a huge bonus, but it's a bonus.
TW-Defense seems like a wasted feat, Dodge is superiour.
Rend seems nice though, but also fairly late, and I don't wanna plan for that far ahead yet.
Right now my plan if I go Barbarian is either:
18,15,15,7,7,12
or something like
16,15,16,8,10,12
The race is the Kuru, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int (already included above). So that 18 Str would be freaking expensive. (And yes, I know it's not an ideal case for Barbarians, but they're not horrible either)
Hm... 17,15,14,8,18,12 would also work (trading 2 con for 1 Str from #2)
That way I start with 15 Dex and can easily get TWF.
I either raise Dex twice and get 17 Dex by 8 and take iTWF at 9 (or dip a level of fighter at that point), and qualify for Rend or I increase Strength and get a +2 Dex belt for those feats by that point.
Of course that latter option has disadvantages, can be dispelled, lost etc. And the money I need to invest in Dex I can't invest in Str, so it probably comes out more or less the same in the end.
Though a +2 Dex/Str belt is cheaper than a +4 Str belt...
Ah well, I'm already far overthinking it
|
|
I don't get why Double slice isnt worth the feat, especially with a of str bonus of+3 out +5. You use s great for PA to get +3 damage for a -1 to attack. And with 24 str you get a +4 to damage on half your attacks Which isn't unreasonable. I'm looking at it for my basher Paladin cause a bash+1 versus pushing that up to a +3 makes the-2 to hit from TWF more worthwhile. Wrap spec is only a +2 and is a feat.
All double slice does is give you full STR bonus on your off hand attack. It's only a small damage boost to one or two attacks in a round. If you need it for two weapon rend, then it's acceptable as two weapon rend is great. If you don't need it for two weapon rend, there are better feats to take. Especially if you are using it for a shield bash.
It is for two weapon rend, but the +2 to damage that I'll be getting till my str gets to 20 when it bumps to 3 will be nice.