I'm wanting to play a different type of grappler - a canine unit-styled Order of the Penitent cavalier whose animal companion grapples a foe while the cavalier ties up that foe in ropes. Basically, I want to Tie Up enemies in one round.
However, I have some concerns. Please let me know if these are legitimate:
1 - the GM will not allow the AC to make a grapple check.
2 - space. PFS is known for the small dungeons. I'm worried that I wont be able to get the AC and the cavalier adjacent to the same enemy.
So, is this a viable build? Or, are there too many logistical flaws?
Would it be better/easier to go for a grappling monk or other class?
Thanks!
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I'm wanting to play a different type of grappler - a canine unit-styled Order of the Penitent cavalier whose animal companion grapples a foe while the cavalier ties up that foe in ropes. Basically, I want to Tie Up enemies in one round.
However, I have some concerns. Please let me know if these are legitimate:
1 - the GM will not allow the AC to make a grapple check.
2 - space. PFS is known for the small dungeons. I'm worried that I wont be able to get the AC and the cavalier adjacent to the same enemy.So, is this a viable build? Or, are there too many logistical flaws?
Would it be better/easier to go for a grappling monk or other class?
Thanks!
Seems pretty reasonable to me, PFS has relatively tight quarters but for Medium creatures you shouldn't have much trouble getting both of you adjacent. When you hit 7th level, take the option to keep your companion at Medium size and take the Dex bonus instead. You might even want to give it the Agile Maneuvers feat so that you use Dex instead of Str to do the grappling.
The cavalier's mount needs to be one that they can ride. So, if I want to be Human the mount needs to be large. I could go with a halfling but then I would be taking a minus to my grapple checks. Not sure if i want to do that.
SE - those are some good suggestions. What order of those classes would you suggest?
If you take 4 levels in Monk with the Quinngong archetype, you gain True Strike as a Ki Power, which you can use as a Swift Action.
Actually, I don't think that's correct. My Qinngong Zen Archer tried this trick and got shot down.
In the Qinggong archetype, it says "These ki powers duplicate the effects of a spell, and are spell-like abilities."
If you check "spell-like abilities", you get "A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
Since nothing in the Qinggong ability specifically notes otherwise, a spell-like ki power functions exactly like casting a spell (takes a standard action, provokes attacks of opportunity, subject to spell resistance, etc.).
The "swift action" description is actually only applied to the basic ki pool abilities: right after the list of "Make one additional attack/Increase his speed by 20 feet/Give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC", you have the line "Each of these powers is activated as a swift action." If it said "All ki powers are activated as a swift action", then we'd have an argument that the ki ability trumps the spell-like ability. Alas, it does not.
It's still a damn good power, though.
Volatile vaporizers ate pretty expensive for a level 1 spell. Especially in PFS where crafting isn't an option.
Would a dan bong be useful for a grappling cavalier? Is it worth the extra feat? Can it even be used in conjunction with a rope?
Volatile Vaporizers aren't expensive for level 1 spells. A Level 1 Volatile Vaporizer only costs 2200gp, like a +1 weapon.
Dan bongs are awesome.
What would be the problem with dan bongs with rope?
The problem is that you need a hand free to use the rope. If you have a dan bong in your hand, your hand isn't free. (My Halfling terori has the same issue.)
A dan bong is a one handed weapon isn't it?
Can you use this with whip and Equipment trick (Rope)?
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The mount cannot select Improved Grapple as a feat until you bump up its INT to 3 at L4 and you have a spare feat at L6. Which means it will incur an AOO (and penalty equal to damage if hit) each time it tried to grapple.
You would also have to teach it the Maneuver Trick.
Maneuver (DC 20): The animal is trained to use a specific combat maneuver on command. An animal must know the attack trick before it can be taught the maneuver trick, and it only performs maneuvers against targets it would normally attack. This trick can be taught to an animal multiple times. Each time it is taught, the animal can be commanded to use a different combat maneuver.
I don't know why your GM would not allow your AC to make a grapple check. As long as you have the correct tricks and know the grapple rules, it is a legitimate use of the AC. If it is a PFS GM, he/she would need firm rules backing for disallowing AC grappling.
At this point, I will be blunt and say if you are seeking grappling efficiency, skip the mount and build a dedicated grappler character. By the time your mount gets Improved Grapple at L6, you would qualify for Greater Grapple. It would be simpler all around than combining the trifecta of A) Mounted Combat rules, B) Animal Companion rules and C) Grappling rules.
Well I can be Human and take Eye for Talent- boost the ACs starting INT to 4. Then give the AC IUS at 2hd and take imp. Grapple at 3rd (2nd level of cavalier).
But that would be if I went full cavalier. If I wanted to multi class work monk, should I take the monk or cavalier levels first?
Also, strength or dex for this build?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/impaling-charge-monster
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Rh inoceros
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/beast-rider-orc-half-orc
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/celestial-servant-aasimar
You'd get a rhino mount,
I'd say you can start as aasimar with the scion of humanity trait, then move on to racial heritage Half-orc, or sorcerer with orc bloodline
So you know that will increase your AC's BAB.
Nice Build!
LN Human
STR 14 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
Traits: Bred for War, Reactionary
L1 - Maneuver Master Monk 1: EWP (Dan Bong), Agile Maneuvers, IUS (bonus), Improved Grapple, Flurry of Maneuvers. Grapple CMB +10(+8 Flurry)
L2 - MM1/Cavalier 1: Animal Companion (camel, for the spit attack), Tactician (Coordinated Maneuvers), Challenge, Order of the Penitent. Grapple CMB +11 (+9 Flurry)
L3 - MM1/Cav2: WF (Dan Bong), Expert Captor. Grapple CMB +13(+11 Flurry)
At 3rd level, this character will be able to grapple and Tie Up an opponent in one round as a full attack action with a +11 CMB. The Escape DC is 32. I can boost this an additional +2 as a Standard via the Tactician ability. With a 14 STR, my hit/damage will be "OK" for when I can't grapple something. Though, I will probably grab Weapon Finesse at some point. But, the overall goal with the build is to shut down the enemy, not beat it to death.
Now, after these three levels, I could go Alchemist for the spells/mutagens. Or, I could just go back into Monk.
Another option is taking a level in Witch instead of alchemist for the hex/spells/familiar - get a familiar one level earlier but True Strike is NOT on the spell list. Evil Eye might be useful for a grappler?
But, any casting class will push back the BAB needed for Greater Grapple. But, is that really needed past 3rd level when I can tie up enemies in one round?
Thoughts?
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1) You cannot take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at L1 as BAB +1 is required. You would need to take a cavalier level first.
2) I'm not sure how you got +13 CMB at L3. (2 BAB, 4 DEX, 2 Improved Grapple, 1 Weapon Focus = 9, Flurrying = 7)
3) Using a Dan Bong is inviting table variance (Grappling without two hands free = -4, Dan Bong gives you +2, etc, etc). Ditch it.
4) How are grappling and tying up in one round at L3?
Actually, I could go straight into Lore Warden at level 4. The +2 CMB/CMD from Maneuver Mastery at level 3 is great! And, the fighter's Weapon Training (monk weapons) should stack with the grapple checks from the Dan Bong. Combat Expertise could be situational useful, I suppose...
The character won't be Gish, but, I'm not a fan of "do everything" builds.
1) You cannot take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at L1 as BAB +1 is required. You would need to take a cavalier level first.
True. Blast!
Feat suggestion?
2) I'm not sure how you got +13 CMB at L3. (2 BAB, 4 DEX, 2 Improved Grapple, 1 Weapon Focus = 9, Flurrying = 7)
Good Question-
With the Dan Bong figured in...
+3 BAB(Maneuver Master uses Monk level as BAB for CMs)
+1 Bred for War trait
+4 Dex
+2 Improved Grapple
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Dan Bong
= +13. +11 w/ Flurry
First grapple:
+2 BAB
+1 Bred for War trait
+4 Dex
+2 Improved Grapple
+1 Weapon Focus
= +10. +8 w/ Flurry
Second Grapple
+3 BAB
+1 Bred for War trait
+4 Dex
+2 Improved Grapple
+1 Weapon Focus
+5 Grappled Opponent
-2 Flurried
= +14. Escape DC = 35
3) Using a Dan Bong is inviting table variance (Grappling without two hands free = -4, Dan Bong gives you +2, etc, etc). Ditch it.
Really? Meh. Ok...fine ;)
+11 grapple CMB then at level 3. *monk goes into corner and cries*4) How are grappling and tying up in one round at L3?
Another Good Question.
Flurry of Maneuvers allows the monk to basically do "two weapon fighting" with CMs. At level 1, this lets the monk do 2 Grapple checks in one round as a full attack with the standard -2 penalty to the CMB.
Forward to level 3 - the now Monk 1/Cavalier 2 can Tie Up on their second grapple check (does not mention anything about a standard action) without the -10 penalty or the needing the opponent to be pinned.
So, assuming a full round action, the monk/cavalier can Flurry Grapple - the first grapple, to, well, grapple. The second grapple check activates Expert Captor - the opponent is Tied Up with a 30+ DC to escape the bonds.
Neat, huh?
What book is Expert Captor in? I need to check that one out.
Also just curious:
What's the benefit of going with Dex-based and Agile Maneuvers? Is that mainly for the AC benefit? You won't be able to do any damage until you can afford an agile amulet of mighty fists.
Some general suggestions, regardless of build:
Another useful feat is the Celestial Obedience for Feylana (Empyreal Lord of female warriors): +4 sacred bonus to grapple checks and to CMD. If you can justify it, it's pretty sweet.
Armbands of the brawler (in Ultimate Equipment) give you +1 competence bonus to grapple checks for only 500 gp.
Expert Captor is the 2nd level ability from the order of the Penitent found in the Knights of the Inner Sea splatbook.
What book is the celestial obedience feat/god in?
Cavalier - Order of the Penitent
Not all knights begin their careers as nobles' children or as squires. Some start out as thieves, murderers, or cheats, and only after they see the suffering caused by their crimes do they dedicate themselves to honorable service. Cavaliers who follow this order seek to make up for the crimes they've committed in the past, and do whatever they can to restore their tainted honor.
Edicts: The cavalier must be merciful to wrongdoers and show unfettered fairness whenever he passes judgment. He must assume that only the most heinous monsters are irrevocably evil, and must deliver all foes capable of fair trial to the appropriate local law enforcers.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the penitent cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a +1 morale bonus to his CMD against combat maneuvers made by the target of his challenge whenever he is threatening the target. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: An order of the penitent cavalier adds Escape Artist (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis) to his list of class skills. Whenever he makes an Escape Artist check, the cavalier may add his Strength bonus to the check in addition to his Dexterity modifier.
Order Abilities: An order of the penitent cavalier gains the following abilities as he increases in level.
Expert Captor (Ex)
At 2nd level, as long as he has rope, the cavalier can tie up a grappled opponent, even if the opponent is not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, and he does not take the usual –10 penalty on his combat maneuver check to do so. When determining the DC to escape bonds secured by the cavalier, the cavalier's Combat Maneuver Bonus increases by 1/2 his cavalier level.
Adept Disarmer (Ex)
At 8th level, the cavalier gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. In addition, whenever he makes a successful disarm check, as long as he has at least one hand free and the dropped item can be held in one hand, he can automatically pick up the dropped item in his free hand.
Saving Grace (Ex)
At 15th level, whenever he would strike a creature with a melee attack that deals lethal damage and would bring the creature's hit points below 0, the cavalier can, as a free action, change the type of damage dealt to nonlethal damage. The cavalier can use this ability once per round.
As far as going dex vs str - AC and initiative.
Do monks keep their wis AC bonus when grappling?
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Ok, LibraryRPGamer, it seems you are misunderstanding Flurry of Maneuvers.
#1 Flurry of Maneuvers is a full round attack action.
#2 You would get your normal amount of melee attacks as if you were full attacking.
#2a In place of one of your normal melee attacks you can instead attempt a sunder, trip or disarm. (This is unrelated to FoM.)
#3 Beyond the normal attacks, thanks to FoM, you also get bonus maneuvers. You can do these maneuvers regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.
So, at level 3, you normally would have one attack from BAB. If you used FoM, your round would go:
Declare Full Round attack with FoM
Melee attack
Bonus maneuver
It would not go:
Declare Full Round attack with FoM
Standard action maneuver
Bonus maneuver
When you get to +6/+1 BAB, a FoM would go:
Melee attack
Melee attack
Bonus maneuver
Hopefully that clears that up.
Next up, because you do not have any special class abilities, you will be taking a -4 DEX penalty from the Grappled condition. This means because of Agile Maneuvers you will be taking a -2 penalty on your Grapple CMB when making subsequent grapple checks. Something to keep in mind.
Regarding Expert Captor...
In a previous thread, you said:
Please tare the build apart if it is wrong. Oh ya, this is for PFS, so be as strict with your rules lawyering as possible :)
I replied:
"At 2nd level, as long as he has rope, the cavalier can tie up a grappled opponent, even if the opponent is not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, and he does not take the usual –10 penalty on his combat maneuver check to do so."1) You must make a combat maneuver check. Nothing in the description bypasses the normal restrictions of the relevant combat maneuver check (in this case: grapple). You must expend a standard action Grapple check to tie up an opponent you are grappling. The ability simply lets you improve your action economy in combat to go Grapple-then-Tie-Up-without- penalty versus the normal Grapple-then-Tie-Up-with-penalty or the longer Grapple-then-Pin-then-Tie-Up-without-penalty.
2) Some GMs require rope be actually retrieved and in hand (move action) to tie up. Other GMs will be fine as long as you have rope somewhere on your character as they feel tying up includes retrieving the rope from your inventory. Table Variation Guideline: Chat with your GM before the game.
Finally, while you have an interesting character concept, I would suggest going with a simpler, straightforward character build as your rules/mechanics assumptions are on shaky ground. I say this with all due respect and friendliness, one grappler to another :)
Expert Captor is the 2nd level ability from the order of the Penitent found in the Knights of the Inner Sea splatbook.
What book is the celestial obedience feat/god in?
Chronicles of the Righteous (see here for the text). Feylana is in the same book.
If Expert Captor doesn't work for some reason, there's also the Equipment Trick (Rope) feat. That takes it from a -10 to a -5.
As far as going dex vs str - AC and initiative.
Do monks keep their wis AC bonus when grappling?
Yes. They even apply when the monk is pinning an opponent: "These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed."
I've got a Halfling grappler built as a Tetori monk. The Barbarian archetype Brutal Pugelist is also pretty good.
I'll check out the Order of the Penitent. According to additional Resources, that order is legal for PFS.
^This was what I was thinking of when I started this post. Though I didn't think of the bodyguard archetype. Good find!
It also brings me back to square one. PFS is notorious for having combats that do not favor camel/human mounted tactics - 10ft ceilings, adventures that are 100% indoors where large animals are not allowed, etc, etc.
If I do not ride the companion then I have space issues when my allies are clustered in combat. How do I get both the cavalier and the companion adjacent to the same beasty?
I would need a super high initiative to melee sure I can get to the enemy first. And that's not possible due to lack of feats.
A thought- At fifth level I could go into Lore Warden. Take boon companion to keep my AC on level.
A thought- At fifth level I could go into Lore Warden. Take boon companion to keep my AC on level.
What are you getting out of Lore Warden, specifically?
If you want to take a fighter dip, consider Unarmed Fighter at 1st level: you get improved unarmed strike for free and a bonus style feat (a lot of grapplers go with the Snapping Turtle tree, but I'm not sure it's worth it; Crane Style is always a solid choice, because Dodge bonuses go to CMD). You can then take Improved Grapple at 1st level.
Alternatively, you could dip one level of monk for Unarmed Strike and take Improved Grapple as your bonus feat. (If you don't want to be Lawful, take the Martial Artist archetype).
So it looks like my original strategy is out. Thanks everyone for thinking up options for a Plan B. I appreciate everyone's help!
What are you getting out of Lore Warden, specifically?
Essentially, Lore Warden because:
Maneuver Master - +2 to CMBWeapon Training (unarmed): +1 CMB progression
My thought was that these two stacked could make my character's CMB pretty high.
A few other options I was thinking of:
-What about the Mancatcher? Are the rules still vague for that weapon?
-Also, what about the Brutal Pugilist? Is that a good grappling archetype?
And finally - what's grapple "best" (i.e. most efficient) application - pure damage, movement, Tie Up, etc?
So "grappling efficiency" = "non-lethal damage"?
Are the other grappling options just sub-par then?
A build based on Binding Throw would be interesting...
Human Maneuver Master Monk /Brawler Fighter
1st - MM Monk 1: IUS, Imp. Trip, Ki Throw, Combat Reflexes
2nd - MM Monk 2: Imp. Grapple
3rd - MM2/Brawler 1: Vicious Stomp, Binding Throw
4th - MM2/Br2: Enhanced Ki Throw
5th - MM2/Br3...
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So "grappling efficiency" = "non-lethal damage"
There are two types of grapplers: control grapplers and damage grapplers.
For the majority of your PFS career, you will be a control grappler who locks down a target and sets up the DPS on your team to obliterate the grappled/pinned target with focus fire or you isolate individual targets to allow the rest of your team to focus fire something else.
The most efficient parties I was in would act like a wood chipper--I would grab something and serve it up to the DPS peeps to shred. If we got swamped by a mass of mobs, we quickly decided if I should run around tying up mooks and let them handle the boss or if I would tangle up the boss until they cleared the mooks.
Depending on your build, you can transition from control to DPS.
Once you can afford Anaconda's Coils and have the rapid grappler feat, you can potentially do 3 constricts and grapple checks to do unarmed damage per round for a total of 6x your unarmed damage. If you get pinning KO, you can double your grapple check to do damage as non-lethal, meaning 3 constricts and grapple checks can do 9x your unarmed damage in a single round.
Either way, not only can you lock down targets, you can eliminate them leaving your party to focus fire elsewhere. However, once you get to the point where you can crush things to death on your own, they'll start having defenses like Freedom of Movement, teleportation or nasty touch debuffs that you must contend with.
Neither is better than the other, but both take a heavy investment in feats and gear to make work.