I assume the answer is yes but I wanted to double-check.
The same for ray attacks and the -4 for cover.
I have just started running a game (RotRL) and I haven't been applying these penalties because it seems like my party's sorcerer is already gimped enough. Most of the time he attacks with ray of frost or his elemental blast. He has a +2 dex bonus and is usually trying to hit reasonably high touch ACs (goblins are small and have good dex), so he misses most of the time. Since most of the time an enemy would be in melee and have cover (from his ally standing in the way), adding a -8 penalty on top of that seems cruel and unusual punishment. Basically he will need 20's to hit most of the time.
Peet
Yes.
They are pretty much just like other ranged attacks.
Addition: Your sorc player needs to learn some basic strategy. Don't target touch vs high touch ac (or dex)enemies, target fort or will... or better yet, use something that just hits.
Eeeyup.
He should circle around his allies so there's not cover, at least. Or fire at something that's not in melee. Or use any number of spells that doesn't require an attack roll. Or get Precise Shot if he's really that attached to firing rays into melee.
He's got options, he's a caster.
Yeah... at 1st level he doesn't have the feats for Precise Shot. Some maneuvering gets him around the cover problem sometimes, but also can open him up to attacks.
With 4 spells per day he is careful about when to use them. If you assume a 4-encounter day then that is 1 spell per encounter. He should probably be a bit more willing to unload sometimes but a 1st-level caster needs to have combat options other than casting spells.
Hmmm... food for thought.
You just started and he's a sorcerer, he'll be "gimp" for a little bit.
Touch is odd because it actually goes down as you go up in levels. Wait till book 3 and 4 and he'll be hitting fairly often, even with a -8. At low levels touch and regular ac are often nearly the same, but then (on average) they go down.
Unless your built a certain way low levels can and do just suck as a caster. That's just part of the ascension to godhood.
^^^^ I don't know if you can (If you play PFS, IIRC you can't add loot), but in a game we looted one when I played a wizard. Was pretty nice at first levels to save some spells.
Still, If he want to use range touch spells, 14 Dex seems to be a little "Meh" IMO.
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If you are playing just the PFS legal sections of the AP, with PFS PCs, you cannot add loot, but then the PC can spend 2 PP to get that wand, all PFS legal.
If you are playing the AP in home game mode, even if it is for PFS credit, the GM has the right and priviledge to modify the game as he sees fit, with the minor PFS proviso that the basic story remain intact.
0 level spell Acid Splash. Get a vial of acid and use it as a focus and it will do 1d3+1 damage. Unlimited uses per day. :)
Yeah, good points. I have been thinking about giving out some things. Perhaps a somewhat depleted wand would work. They should hit 2nd level after 2 more sessions, and then he might be willing to take some more risks.
14 Dex is kind of Meh but these guys are either not good at optimizing or not really trying to optimize. He also has 14 con and 13 int and nothing below 10. Which I`m okay with as a GM since the AP is mostly fairly easy.
Peet
0 level spell Acid Splash. Get a vial of acid and use it as a focus and it will do 1d3+1 damage. Unlimited uses per day. :)
It`s still a range touch attack though. I do kinda wish there was a 1d3 damage cantrip that had reflex for half (or for no damage) instead of ranged touch.
If you are playing the AP in home game mode, even if it is for PFS credit, the GM has the right and priviledge to modify the game as he sees fit, with the minor PFS proviso that the basic story remain intact.
Kinevon, I didn`t know you could run home games for PFS credit. Can you give me a link to how that works?
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Peet, I was addressing the limited uses per day issue. Yes, it has an attack roll and that includes all of the other penalties involved but at least it is unlimited use per day. :)
If you're planning to use rays often for most of the character's career, make the sorcerer human. Pick Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot as your first two feats at first level.
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0 level spell Acid Splash. Get a vial of acid and use it as a focus and it will do 1d3+1 damage. Unlimited uses per day. :)It`s still a range touch attack though. I do kinda wish there was a 1d3 damage cantrip that had reflex for half (or for no damage) instead of ranged touch.
If you are playing the AP in home game mode, even if it is for PFS credit, the GM has the right and priviledge to modify the game as he sees fit, with the minor PFS proviso that the basic story remain intact.Kinevon, I didn`t know you could run home games for PFS credit. Can you give me a link to how that works?
Sure, trying to find it, it was one of the Monday PFS Blogs, but form some time ago.
In short, you can run any of the APs with chronicles, or the module The Dragon's Demand, in home game mode, but still give out PFS chroncile sheets, when the PCs pass the milestones.
Dragon's Demand is a bit different, where, in home game mode, you don't give out the chronicles until it is completed, and the players and GM can get a bonus chronicle if they put all 4 chronicles on the same PFS PC.
Links:
Sanctioning Adventure Paths for Pathfinder Society
Dragon's Demand
If you search around the PFS boards, you can find more about both of these...
In our current RotRL game, we found a wand of magic missile with 20 odd charges before we faced the shadows in Thistletop. I have no idea if our GM added it or if it was part of the official loot, but it was very useful against a couple of enemies in the lower areas of Thistletop. And then we got 2nd level spells and stopped using it.
The sorceror should also be using a sling a few times at 1st level. Yes, he'll miss a lot. So?
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These are the levels where a party should be trying to learn how to fight together. "Hey guys, can you try to leave a hole that I can shoot through?"
Also, as has been said, this problem won't stick around for long. Touch AC targeting is an awesome gift that keeps on giving over time.
Keep in mind that there are different rules for firing into melee, and you need to take both into consideration because they might both apply to your situation.
1) If your target is within 10 ft of an ally, you take a -4 penalty because you attempt to aim at your enemy and try to not hit your ally (which is reduzed if the target is bigger). You need precice shot to ignore this.
2) If an ally, or any other target, is between you and your actual target, your actual target will get a +4 AC from the soft cover provided.
Within 10 feet of an ally? That's not the rule.
Maybe he is thinking of the partial cover rules where you lose partial cover if the source of the cover is closer to your attacker than to you.
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Keep in mind that there are different rules for firing into melee, and you need to take both into consideration because they might both apply to your situation.
1) If your target is within 10 ft of an ally, you take a -4 penalty because you attempt to aim at your enemy and try to not hit your ally (which is reduzed if the target is bigger). You need precice shot to ignore this.
2) If an ally, or any other target, is between you and your actual target, your actual target will get a +4 AC from the soft cover provided.
#1 should be if the target is engaged in melee, which typically means threatening or being threatened with a melee weapon. This -4 penalty is usually negated by taking Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, but can also be negated against large or bigger targets by making your ranged attack against a portion of the enemy which is 10' or more from the areas threatened by your ally's attack mode.
There is also this gem:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."
So, if your ally is fighting a large creature with a reach weapon, then aim at the back square of the large creature and you do not take the -4 penalty. Other than that take Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot as mentioned earlier. There is nothing better than getting rid of the -4 penalty if you plan on being a ranged fighting character of any type.
I did not know about the 10 feet away rule.. :)
@Kinevon: Thanks for the links! I am totally signing my guys up in PFS before they get to Thistletop.
@Galarius: I think that wand is actually in the adventure, but I don't have it in front of me. One of Lyrie's items maybe?
@Anguish: yes, you are totally right. They do need to get better at this. However even the -4 penalty for being in melee is crippling at this level.
@shadowkras (& hendelboaf): thanks for bringing up the 10-foot thing. I didn't know about that. It won't come up for a while though; I don't think there are any large critters to deal with until they meet Malfeshnekor.
@Akerlof: yeah, I basically made him take daze. He hasn't really had the chance to use it yet since he added it to his list (since it's humanoids only).
Anyway, I appreciate everybody's feedback. The early part of the module is pretty light treasure-wise so I'm definitely going to add some stuff.
Peet