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Or the apocafists :p actually had a thought does a huge sized dagger keep its light weapon status when its wielded 2h by a medium creature?No.
Let's be specific...
It is a light weapon for a huge creature, but a medium creature is using it as a two handed weapon (because of the size difference adjusting the measure of effort needed to wield the weapon) It is still designated a Light weapon, for those whom it was made for.
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The titan mauler does not mention shields once.Creatures may wield one-handed weapons sized for creatures one size categories larger than themselves as two-handed weapons, at a penalty. The Titan Mauler archetype reduces those penalties.
Seems relatively straightforward.
I don't think the weapon side of shields are in debate, it is the shield bonus to AC. If you are Medium and wearing a large Shield, then you wouldn't get the AC because there are no rules for wearing inappropriately sized shields/armor.
Or the apocafists :p actually had a thought does a huge sized dagger keep its light weapon status when its wielded 2h by a medium creature?No.Let's be specific...
It is a light weapon for a huge creature, but a medium creature is using it as a two handed weapon (because of the size difference adjusting the measure of effort needed to wield the weapon) It is still designated a Light weapon, for those whom it was made for.
I'm now picturing using a Huge gauntlet as a two-handed weapon.
...
...What? You're limited to doing the Kirk Double Fist Punch, but it should work. : D
I don't think the weapon side of shields are in debate, it is the shield bonus to AC. If you are Medium and wearing a large Shield, then you wouldn't get the AC because there are no rules for wearing inappropriately sized shields/armor.The titan mauler does not mention shields once.Creatures may wield one-handed weapons sized for creatures one size categories larger than themselves as two-handed weapons, at a penalty. The Titan Mauler archetype reduces those penalties.
Seems relatively straightforward.
the lack of supporting rules for oversized armor is a bit of an issue. If it came up in a game I was running I'd probably say increased damage dice, but the shield bonus to AC stays the same, and maybe bump up the armor check penalty. That pure house-rules, though.
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The main difference between the Titan Mauler and the Thunder and Fang feat is the fact that one has a FAQ and the other doesn't need one (See FAQ on the other).
Titan Mauler makes specific mention to limitations. Thunder and Fang are absent those limitations.
"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."
A Large Earthbreaker to this character would be treated as a large sized one handed weapon... we already know a large one handed weapon can be wielded in two hands by a medium creature. So it works just fine.
Or the apocafists :p actually had a thought does a huge sized dagger keep its light weapon status when its wielded 2h by a medium creature?
Is it still a dagger for things like the river rat trait or the knife master rogue?
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A Large Earthbreaker to this character would be treated as a large sized one handed weapon... we already know a large one handed weapon can be wielded in two hands by a medium creature. So it works just fine.
Can we make a new thread for this? So we don't pollute this thread with back and forth yes it works/no it doesn't work?
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I call that a blunder, on the part of the development team.
A deliberate blunder, but a blunder nonetheless.
agreed. Especially when they keep lines like " taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift".
Seems like they should've just re-fluffed the titan mauler completely if they stripped it of its core intended function.
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The original intent of the writer for the Titan Mauler archetype was to have characters wielding Huge, Garg, and Col weapons. But the balance team decided that was excessive and deliberately changed the wording so that it doesn't exempt the character from the size-step change inherent to wielding wrong-sized weapons. It wasn't a "blunder", it was a deliberate change to address a perceived balance issue.
Also, don't trust Thax; he has a history of presenting disinformation specifically on the subject of wrong-sized weapons. The correct interpretation of the rules is as follows:
All weapons have an "effort-to-use" category and a "size" category. The effort to use is whether it is a light, 1-h, or 2-h weapon and the size is the size of creature it was designed for. So a Medium Two-Handed weapon is a weapon that requires Two-Handed effort by a Medium creature (or one that counts as Medium for wielding, ie. Centaur) while a Large One-Handed weapon is a weapon that requires One-Handed effort by a Large creature. If you wield a weapon for a different-sized creature, you shift the effective "effort-to-use" category by one step per size category difference. For instance, a Huge Light weapon wielded by a Medium character is treated as Light>1-H>2-H, a Two-Handed weapon and also suffers -2 attack per category change (net -4 for this example). It works the other way, as well; a Medium Greatsword wielded by a Huge character is treated as 2-H>1-H>Light>, a Light weapon, also with a net -4 to attack. If this change would take you "above" 2-H or "below" Light, you cannot wield the weapon. If a feat or ability changes the "effort-to-use" category and doesn't specifically call out that it applies only to weapons properly sized for you, then that means it affects weapons of all sizes and is then subject to category changes based on size disparity. In other words, a Huge Dagger is still a Light weapon, but a Medium character wields it "as if"...
Nicely worded... +21
...on all aspects.
agreed. Especially when they keep lines like " taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift".
Well, this still technically true. Once a Titan Mauler gets Titanic Rage at level 14, she can snatch up a Cloud Giant's huge morningstar and use it as a two-handed weapon. She won't be able to use it once she drops out of rage and shrinks back to her regular size, but still.
If she wants to carry a huge one-handed weapon (or a gargantuan light one, or two large two-handed ones) for use while raging, there are workarounds for keeping the weapon from growing when she does. Extradimensional spaces, for example.
An awesome action.
What kind of action would it be to toss the weapon up into the air and then use your Titanic Rage before catching it?
How about if instead we throw the sword into them, Charge up to them and use titanic rage as a free action, and then rip it out of them like a chainsaw. What type of action is that?
Actually, how do you even get so angry you grow and your clothes and weapons grow with you... Huh. You can also wield a body as a weapon using body bludgeon. Does he grow?
agreed. Especially when they keep lines like " taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift".
Well, this still technically true. Once a Titan Mauler gets Titanic Rage at level 14, she can snatch up a Cloud Giant's huge morningstar and use it as a two-handed weapon. She won't be able to use it once she drops out of rage and shrinks back to her regular size, but still.
If she wants to carry a huge one-handed weapon (or a gargantuan light one, or two large two-handed ones) for use while raging, there are workarounds for keeping the weapon from growing when she does. Extra-dimensional spaces, for example.
The problem is, figuring out how to actually make that work, is not obvious without some system mastery.
When you read the class it's described as using the weapons from large creatures and for using weapons that normal human sized creatures could never dream of. If you read that and casually read the class, it looks like it's meant to allow you to wield large or even huge sized weapons.
The entire class is a blunder because it not only doesn't do what you think it does (without work arounds like titanic rage and figuring out how to toss and catch it so it doesn't grow), it's actually a trap if that was your goal.
Tangentally related class blunder from Inner Sea Combat
You have a Cavalier archetype thats essentially a cowboy with guns, but he can only challenge people for melee damage.
Sometimes I wonder if its the editor missing how broken these are or just being mean to cool class ideas.
Tangentally related class blunder from Inner Sea Combat
You have a Cavalier archetype thats essentially a cowboy with guns, but he can only challenge people for melee damage.
Sometimes I wonder if its the editor missing how broken these are or just being mean to cool class ideas.
Here's the archetype Dragoon's referring to, if anyone's curious.
He's also proficient in whips! Lots to say about this weird one.
Dune Drifter looks fine to me. Just because she uses firearms doesn't mean all her abilities have to revolve around them. She's also a full-BAB combatant with full martial weapon proficiency (and whip!) and a melee murderhorse.
Wow, I almost want to retrain my goblin gunslinger into this bad boy.
It is actually a cool idea! Unfortunately, the writer probably did not know how challenge worked.
I know most of the bad ideas are just the writer not understanding the rules (which is fair, literally zero people understand the rules totally), and writing something that sounds cool but missing a vital piece.
True, but you'd think editors would pick up on this to cover the missed bit for the writer, or errata it later so it works.
I'd be willing to be more forgiving of the editors if it wasn't apparent that they do take the time to see how it lines up with the rules. If they didn't we'd have a Barbarian class that could actually wield giant weapons. Instead what we saw was that the editors took the time to read over it, remove the ability and keep all of the outlying fluff. If they can do that, they should be able to add a small line to fix another writers oversight.
You also get to enjoy having Cavalier Saves, and no gun training.
It is probably better than a standard cavalier, even with a challenge that functionally will do nothing (Also, that is super sad)
One of the things I'd love to go back in time and murder is stat to damage for projectile weapons. Then folks wouldn't expect it to be a given, crossbows wouldn't suck quite so much compared to bows, and thrown weapons would have a better handle on the close-range niche. And people wouldn't pooh-pooh melee martials because "archers can full-attack every round, melded can't."
Dune Drifter looks fine to me. Just because she uses firearms doesn't mean all her abilities have to revolve around them. She's also a full-BAB combatant with full martial weapon proficiency (and whip!) and a melee murderhorse.
Wow, I almost want to retrain my goblin gunslinger into this bad boy.
The fact that he has abilities revolving around shooting the target of his challenge with a gun does rather indicate that the author expected the two to work together.
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The main difference between the Titan Mauler and the Thunder and Fang feat is the fact that one has a FAQ and the other doesn't need one (See FAQ on the other).Titan Mauler makes specific mention to limitations. Thunder and Fang are absent those limitations.
"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."
A Large Earthbreaker to this character would be treated as a large sized one handed weapon... we already know a large one handed weapon can be wielded in two hands by a medium creature. So it works just fine.
Your missing the main crux of the overall point. It never changes it's disignation, the weapon is, dispite how one uses it, a Two Handed weapon.
Another way to put it, the character wielding a larger version can no longer use it One Handed, thus the regular rules take over. (Or as I intend, keep being in effect) Either way, it is a two handed weapon that can't be wielded by the smaller character.
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I've determined that it would be a good change for Jotungrip to simply reduce the effort category of all weapons by one step (properly sized or not). This would give the Titan Mauler leeway to wield a Large 2-h weapon, Huge 1-h weapon, or Garg Light weapon. He'll still be able to wield weapons that "lesser warriors can't lift" Then, with Titanic Rage, he'll eventually be able to swing around a Col Light weapon.
Nothing does this. Paizo adjusted the original write up of the Titen Mauler specifically because nothing ajusts the steps except the difference between the size of the weapon to the size of the character.
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I've determined that it would be a good change for Jotungrip to simply reduce the effort category of all weapons by one step (properly sized or not). This would give the Titan Mauler leeway to wield a Large 2-h weapon, Huge 1-h weapon, or Garg Light weapon. He'll still be able to wield weapons that "lesser warriors can't lift" Then, with Titanic Rage, he'll eventually be able to swing around a Col Light weapon.Nothing does this. Paizo adjusted the original write up of the Titen Mauler specifically because nothing ajusts the steps except the difference between the size of the weapon to the size of the character.
Yes...... which is why he's house-ruled it.
The fact that he has abilities revolving around shooting the target of his challenge with a gun does rather indicate that the author expected the two to work together.Dune Drifter looks fine to me. Just because she uses firearms doesn't mean all her abilities have to revolve around them. She's also a full-BAB combatant with full martial weapon proficiency (and whip!) and a melee murderhorse.
Wow, I almost want to retrain my goblin gunslinger into this bad boy.
They do. You do not have to be in melee to challenge.
In the DD's case, if you shoot at the target, you get better range and some misfire protection. If you engage in melee, you get damage bonuses and various order effects.
The fact that he has abilities revolving around shooting the target of his challenge with a gun does rather indicate that the author expected the two to work together.Dune Drifter looks fine to me. Just because she uses firearms doesn't mean all her abilities have to revolve around them. She's also a full-BAB combatant with full martial weapon proficiency (and whip!) and a melee murderhorse.
Wow, I almost want to retrain my goblin gunslinger into this bad boy.
They do. You do not have to be in melee to challenge.
In the DD's case, if you shoot at the target, you get better range and some misfire protection. If you engage in melee, you get damage bonuses and various order effects.
Relevant text and clarification. Bonus damage only applies to melee attacks with a cavalier's challenge, unless you change challenge. So you can still challenge a foe, but to get your bonus damage you need to hit them with melee attacks. Your order may vary as to whether you get any other bonus.
As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge
The Coctrice Order changes the Challenge to be used with ranged attacks, turning it into the regular challenge when/if the challenged hits the cavalier with a Melee attack.
Th3e downside being that you have to be part of the cockatrice order, natch. Luring cavalier was the go to ranged archetype if I remember right, but it swaps out all the charge abilities, and so does the dune drifter making it incompatible.
The fact that he has abilities revolving around shooting the target of his challenge with a gun does rather indicate that the author expected the two to work together.Dune Drifter looks fine to me. Just because she uses firearms doesn't mean all her abilities have to revolve around them. She's also a full-BAB combatant with full martial weapon proficiency (and whip!) and a melee murderhorse.
Wow, I almost want to retrain my goblin gunslinger into this bad boy.
They do. You do not have to be in melee to challenge.
In the DD's case, if you shoot at the target, you get better range and some misfire protection. If you engage in melee, you get damage bonuses and various order effects.
Relevant text and clarification. Bonus damage only applies to melee attacks with a cavalier's challenge, unless you change challenge. So you can still challenge a foe, but to get your bonus damage you need to hit them with melee attacks. Your order may vary as to whether you get any other bonus.
As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge
Exactly. I think we agree on this as to the effects.
then they get enlarge person earlier
Wooh! 14th level. Now I can spend twice as many rage rounds at a time to get the benefits of a first level spell!
Yeah... that could use a fix.
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Your missing the main crux of the overall point. It never changes it's disignation, the weapon is, dispite how one uses it, a Two Handed weapon.
Another way to put it, the character wielding a larger version can no longer use it One Handed, thus the regular rules take over. (Or as I intend, keep being in effect) Either way, it is a two handed weapon that can't be wielded by the smaller character.
What madness is this now? >.<
You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Can you use a Large sized one handed weapon? Yes.
For someone with Thunder and Fang, an earthbreaker is a one handed weapon. A Large earthbreaker is then a Large one handed weapon.
How do you wield a large one handed weapon? In two hands.
A character with Thunder and Fang can use a Large Earthbreaker in two hands.
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Using a two handed weapon in one hand and turning it into a one handed weapon are one of two different things.
This has been re-hashed in the Thunder and Fang thread, which has been locked, and I only mention it because it is related to the subject of the thread. The two situations end up with the same result, one can not wield an oversized two handed weapon.
Using a two handed weapon in one hand and turning it into a one handed weapon are one of two different things.
This has been re-hashed in the Thunder and Fang thread, which has been locked, and I only mention it because it is related to the subject of the thread. The two situations end up with the same result, one can not wield an oversized two handed weapon.
Till they either errata it or FAQ answer it: the rehashing will go on. This I predict.
It is already FAQed as far as the parallel with the Titan Mauler, giving a reasonable answer to the question at hand with a very similar situation. The only difference between the two is that one is a class ability while the other is a feat.
And the Tiefling is allowed with Strong Arms to do so. So the difference between race, Class, and feat vary widely.
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Till they either errata it or FAQ answer it: the rehashing will go on. This I predict.Using a two handed weapon in one hand and turning it into a one handed weapon are one of two different things.
This has been re-hashed in the Thunder and Fang thread, which has been locked, and I only mention it because it is related to the subject of the thread. The two situations end up with the same result, one can not wield an oversized two handed weapon.
Yes it will...
because the rules say you determine effort then you apply inappropriate sized rules (based upon the appearance in the paragraphs).
Some people do them out of order or backwards because it doesn't specifty which to do first.
People just need to keep bringing it up until some power that be opinion is applied.
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The measure of effort is already determined, the only thing that ever changes is how the character adjusts to it when the character and weapon size do not match, or how he uses a weapon differently because of a skill given by a class feature, feat, or some other boon.
The weapon never changes. We have been through this, though, and this is my last post in this thread about it.