Of Titan Maulers and Greatswords.


Rules Questions

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I've got an issue with the Titan Mauler. As far as I can figure out, at 12th level a Titan Mauler should have no penalties wielding a huge sized greatsword as a two-handed weapon. Am I right on this or am I missing something? Also, does anyone know how much a huge sized greatsword would weigh and cost? What about gargantuan and colossal sized greatswords?


Wait never mind I completely misread

Ignore me


Old story, but titan mauler actually doesn't give you the ability to wield a bigger weapon than normal. You could wield a weapon of improper size like a large dagger without penalty, but not a huge greatsword, as cool and thematic as a huge greatsword is and can be.

FAQS wrote:

Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

Now, if you do get to houserule otherwise, it doubles in size and weight per size category after medium. So a huge weapon would be x4, and gargantuan x8(2^3). That said, its not an awful houserule that it cost the same as a normal greatsword because really its just nickel and diming by that level and its not going to shatter the game if you don't pay the cash. Probably puts you more in line with what you should have to be honest if you don't pay it.


MrSin wrote:

Old story, but titan mauler actually doesn't give you the ability to wield a bigger weapon than normal. You could wield a weapon of improper size like a large dagger without penalty, but not a huge greatsword, as cool and thematic as a huge greatsword is and can be.

FAQS wrote:

Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

Now, if you do get to houserule otherwise, it doubles in size and weight per size category after medium. So a huge weapon would be x4, and gargantuan x8(2^3). That said, its not an awful houserule that it cost the same as a normal greatsword because really its just nickel and diming by that level and its not going to shatter the game if you don't pay the cash. Probably puts you more in line with what you should have to be honest if you don't pay it.

True, only two ways to get a Large two hander : Thunder and Fang feat with a larger Earthbreaker (w/no Klar) or Long Arm Tiefling.


Starbuck_II wrote:
True, only two ways to get a Large two hander : Thunder and Fang feat with a larger Earthbreaker (w/no Klar) or Long Arm Tiefling.

Impact weapon quality emulates it(if I remember right), and if your using psionics the half giant race can wield them and the expansion power makes you feel like a god among mortals. Add in a deep crystal sword for more D6's! Pathfinder core is pretty light on this sort of thing though.


MrSin wrote:

Old story, but titan mauler actually doesn't give you the ability to wield a bigger weapon than normal. You could wield a weapon of improper size like a large dagger without penalty, but not a huge greatsword, as cool and thematic as a huge greatsword is and can be.

FAQS wrote:

Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

Now, if you do get to houserule otherwise, it doubles in size and weight per size category after medium. So a huge weapon would be x4, and gargantuan x8(2^3). That said, its not an awful houserule that it cost the same as a normal greatsword because really its just nickel and diming by that level and its not going to shatter the game if you don't pay the cash. Probably puts you more in line with what you should have to be honest if you don't pay it.

So, in other words, the archetype has a rules blunder in it's wording that makes one of it's features worthless? Or is there any errata ruling on this to say the Titan Mauler actually can wield a large or huge weapon?

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is no errata. The Titan Mauler just doesn't work.

Your best option is a huge-sized Aklys (for 3d6).


Berselius wrote:
So, in other words, the archetype has a rules blunder in it's wording that makes one of it's features worthless? Or is there any errata ruling on this to say the Titan Mauler actually can wield a large or huge weapon?

I don't think there's any official rulings the other way, but there is this post. I wouldn't expect a change to the class as written anytime soon though.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Berselius wrote:
huge sized greatsword as a two-handed weapon

Can't.

Medium Dagger Light -> Large Dagger One-Handed -> Huge Dagger Two-Handed

That is the best you can do.

Berselius wrote:
So, in other words, the archetype has a rules blunder in it's wording that makes one of it's features worthless?

No blunder, the original author wrote it to work with Huge Greatswords and the development team removed that deliberately.


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Quote:
No blunder, the original author wrote it to work with Huge Greatswords and the development team removed that deliberately.

Pfff, then the Development team blundered as far as I'm concerned. They ended up giving us a archetype that doesn't do what it's supposed to do.


Titan Mauler is intended to dual-wield greatswords or similar weapons.

Which is pretty scary by itself.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Or, alternatively, wield greatsword and towershield...this was what my son was planning on doing with his.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That's what I did with mine as well.

Dark Archive

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James Risner wrote:

Can't.

Medium Dagger Light -> Large Dagger One-Handed -> Huge Dagger Two-Handed

That is the best you can do.

Just imagine the Titan Mauler getting cornered by thugs in an alley - as they pull out daggers he just smirks before unsheathing his blade and says "That's not a knife. This is a knife!"

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I always thought of him more as a Ranger.


shadowkras wrote:

Titan Mauler is intended to dual-wield greatswords or similar weapons.

Which is pretty scary by itself.

YogoZuno wrote:
Or, alternatively, wield greatsword and towershield...this was what my son was planning on doing with his.

The -6 to hit from dual-wielding greatswords, or the -4 to hit that comes with jotungrip + tower shield. makes of those styles rather unappealing, as far as I'm concerned. Damage only matters if you can land a hit.


A titan mauler using a large falchion as a two-handed weapon sounds pretty awesome. Makes for a great combo with enlarge person and the impact enchantment.

Alternately, grab a large, large steel shield and use it as a two-handed weapon. Add in shield spikes and enlarge person. Wham!


Emmit Svenson wrote:

A titan mauler using a large falchion as a two-handed weapon sounds pretty awesome. Makes for a great combo with enlarge person and the impact enchantment.

Alternately, grab a large, large steel shield and use it as a two-handed weapon. Add in shield spikes and enlarge person. Wham!

You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Mojorat wrote:
Emmit Svenson wrote:
A titan mauler using a large falchion ... large, large steel shield
You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

+1

Chengar Qordath wrote:
The -6 to hit ... makes of those styles rather unappealing

Not everyone play characters that are mechanically optimized. Some people play for flavor.


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James Risner wrote:
Not everyone play characters that are mechanically optimized. Some people play for flavor.

On the other hand, some people don't like playing characters who are punished for their flavor. Its important to be viable, and its great to be rewarded for your creativity.

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go play a character who's allergic to oxygen.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

My character is now Fighter-9/Barbarian-2 (with the Armor Master and Titan Mauler archetypes, respectively). When he wields his Greatsword and Tower Shield the -4 isn't really noticeable. Raging adds another +2 and if my opponent is Large+ I get another +1 (EDIT: and another +1 when flanking due to the Militia Trait).

He's built to Vital Strike (@ 11d6 right now) so all I need is one big hit. The attack bonuses of my iteratives don't matter.


Mojorat wrote:
Emmit Svenson wrote:

A titan mauler using a large falchion as a two-handed weapon sounds pretty awesome. Makes for a great combo with enlarge person and the impact enchantment.

Alternately, grab a large, large steel shield and use it as a two-handed weapon. Add in shield spikes and enlarge person. Wham!

You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

Sorry, meant a large falcata. My bad.

I'd like to see a rules reference saying you can't wear a large shield.


Emmit Svenson wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
Emmit Svenson wrote:

A titan mauler using a large falchion as a two-handed weapon sounds pretty awesome. Makes for a great combo with enlarge person and the impact enchantment.

Alternately, grab a large, large steel shield and use it as a two-handed weapon. Add in shield spikes and enlarge person. Wham!

You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

Sorry, meant a large falcata. My bad.

I'd like to see a rules reference saying you can't wear a large shield.

There isn't one as far as I know. Nothing in RAW prohibits you from wearing Colossal chain mail either, except possibly weight.

And hey, Fine armor ought to be much lighter than Medium. Everybody should wear it. : D

Good luck finding a GM that will allow this stuff. There's a strong implication from many parts of the rules that armor is only effective if appropriately sized (and, in the case of full plate, custom fitted).

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Emmit Svenson wrote:
I'd like to see a rules reference saying you can't wear a large shield.

There isn't a rule that states you "can't", but since Pathfinder is a permissive game what you need are rules that state you "can".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
Emmit Svenson wrote:
A titan mauler using a large falchion ... large, large steel shield
You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

+1

Chengar Qordath wrote:
The -6 to hit ... makes of those styles rather unappealing
Not everyone play characters that are mechanically optimized. Some people play for flavor.

We MUST find these people and tear up their gaming cards NOW! What is this roleplaying thing anyway?!


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James Risner wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
Emmit Svenson wrote:
A titan mauler using a large falchion ... large, large steel shield
You cannot wield a latge falchion or wear a large shield.

+1

Chengar Qordath wrote:
The -6 to hit ... makes of those styles rather unappealing
Not everyone play characters that are mechanically optimized. Some people play for flavor.

Which would be why I stated it was just my personal preference (Though you strategically mined out that part of my post).


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Nefreet wrote:
There isn't a rule that states you "can't", but since Pathfinder is a permissive game what you need are rules that state you "can".

The rules do say you can. A shield is a one-handed weapon. The rules allow a medium-sized character to wield a large-sized weapon as a two-handed weapon, with penalties.

One might argue that a medium-sized character gains no AC benefit from wielding a large-sized shield, but we’ve found no rule that says that.

blahpers wrote:

Nothing in RAW prohibits you from wearing Colossal chain mail either, except possibly weight.

And hey, Fine armor ought to be much lighter than Medium. Everybody should wear it. : D

Unlike a suit of armor, a shield isn’t something you have to fit inside. :) The straps on a large-sized shield are no doubt inconvenient for a medium-sized character, and the weight and balance might be problematic. Thus the penalties. The titan mauler archetype eliminates these penalties.

blahpers wrote:
Good luck finding a GM that will allow this stuff.

Oh, that’s easy...I am a GM who would allow “this stuff”. Letting someone take a specific archetype in order to swing whopping big shield around doesn’t break game balance or tone. Is it really worth whipping up house rules to stop?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Old story, but titan mauler actually doesn't give you the ability to wield a bigger weapon than normal. You could wield a weapon of improper size like a large dagger without penalty, but not a huge greatsword, as cool and thematic as a huge greatsword is and can be.

FAQS wrote:

Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

Now, if you do get to houserule otherwise, it doubles in size and weight per size category after medium. So a huge weapon would be x4, and gargantuan x8(2^3). That said, its not an awful houserule that it cost the same as a normal greatsword because really its just nickel and diming by that level and its not going to shatter the game if you don't pay the cash. Probably puts you more in line with what you should have to be honest if you don't pay it.
True, only two ways to get a Large two hander : Thunder and Fang feat with a larger Earthbreaker (w/no Klar).

Read the quote above again. The same would apply for the Thunder and Fang scenario. The weapon itself does not change, only the character's ability to wield it does. It is and always will be a two handed weapon, hence one still can not wield the oversized one (and only one regular sized, Klar or no.)


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thaX wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Old story, but titan mauler actually doesn't give you the ability to wield a bigger weapon than normal. You could wield a weapon of improper size like a large dagger without penalty, but not a huge greatsword, as cool and thematic as a huge greatsword is and can be.

FAQS wrote:

Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

Now, if you do get to houserule otherwise, it doubles in size and weight per size category after medium. So a huge weapon would be x4, and gargantuan x8(2^3). That said, its not an awful houserule that it cost the same as a normal greatsword because really its just nickel and diming by that level and its not going to shatter the game if you don't pay the cash. Probably puts you more in line with what you should have to be honest if you don't pay it.
True, only two ways to get a Large two hander : Thunder and Fang feat with a larger Earthbreaker (w/no Klar).

Read the quote above again. The same would apply for the Thunder and Fang scenario. The weapon itself does not change, only the character's ability to wield it does. It is and always will be a two handed weapon, hence one still can not wield the oversized one (and only one regular sized, Klar or no.)

actually, they can. The rules are quite clear on this ;P


The original intent of the writer for the Titan Mauler archetype was to have characters wielding Huge, Garg, and Col weapons. But the balance team decided that was excessive and deliberately changed the wording so that it doesn't exempt the character from the size-step change inherent to wielding wrong-sized weapons. It wasn't a "blunder", it was a deliberate change to address a perceived balance issue.

Also, don't trust Thax; he has a history of presenting disinformation specifically on the subject of wrong-sized weapons. The correct interpretation of the rules is as follows:

All weapons have an "effort-to-use" category and a "size" category. The effort to use is whether it is a light, 1-h, or 2-h weapon and the size is the size of creature it was designed for. So a Medium Two-Handed weapon is a weapon that requires Two-Handed effort by a Medium creature (or one that counts as Medium for wielding, ie. Centaur) while a Large One-Handed weapon is a weapon that requires One-Handed effort by a Large creature. If you wield a weapon for a different-sized creature, you shift the effective "effort-to-use" category by one step per size category difference. For instance, a Huge Light weapon wielded by a Medium character is treated as Light>1-H>2-H, a Two-Handed weapon and also suffers -2 attack per category change (net -4 for this example). It works the other way, as well; a Medium Greatsword wielded by a Huge character is treated as 2-H>1-H>Light>, a Light weapon, also with a net -4 to attack. If this change would take you "above" 2-H or "below" Light, you cannot wield the weapon. If a feat or ability changes the "effort-to-use" category and doesn't specifically call out that it applies only to weapons properly sized for you, then that means it affects weapons of all sizes and is then subject to category changes based on size disparity. In other words, a Huge Dagger is still a Light weapon, but a Medium character wields it "as if" it were 2-H. Thunder&Fang and Quarterstaff Master both specify you wield the Earthbreaker/Quarterstaff respectively "as one-handed weapons" meaning that a Large Earthbreaker/Quarterstaff is no longer categorized as 2-H>Unwieldable for a Medium character but, instead, is a 1-H>2-H weapon. Thax has a history of arguing against this principal of the rules and has been shown, time and time again, that he is incorrect but he insists on derailing threads on the subject; disregard anything he has to say on the matter.


James Risner wrote:
Berselius wrote:
huge sized greatsword as a two-handed weapon

Can't.

Medium Dagger Light -> Large Dagger One-Handed -> Huge Dagger Two-Handed

That is the best you can do.

Berselius wrote:
So, in other words, the archetype has a rules blunder in it's wording that makes one of it's features worthless?
No blunder, the original author wrote it to work with Huge Greatswords and the development team removed that deliberately.

I call that a blunder, on the part of the development team.

A deliberate blunder, but a blunder nonetheless.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Berselius wrote:
huge sized greatsword as a two-handed weapon

Can't.

Medium Dagger Light -> Large Dagger One-Handed -> Huge Dagger Two-Handed

That is the best you can do.

Berselius wrote:
So, in other words, the archetype has a rules blunder in it's wording that makes one of it's features worthless?
No blunder, the original author wrote it to work with Huge Greatswords and the development team removed that deliberately.

I call that a blunder, on the part of the development team.

A deliberate blunder, but a blunder nonetheless.

Given the sheer damage per hit of a Huge greatsword (much less a Colossal greatsword), I think it's more of a difference of opinion between you and the design team. Barbarians really don't need any more help in the melee damage department; such a boost would render other martials almost irrelevant.


Emmit Svenson wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
There isn't a rule that states you "can't", but since Pathfinder is a permissive game what you need are rules that state you "can".

The rules do say you can. A shield is a one-handed weapon. The rules allow a medium-sized character to wield a large-sized weapon as a two-handed weapon, with penalties.

One might argue that a medium-sized character gains no AC benefit from wielding a large-sized shield, but we’ve found no rule that says that.

blahpers wrote:

Nothing in RAW prohibits you from wearing Colossal chain mail either, except possibly weight.

And hey, Fine armor ought to be much lighter than Medium. Everybody should wear it. : D

Unlike a suit of armor, a shield isn’t something you have to fit inside. :) The straps on a large-sized shield are no doubt inconvenient for a medium-sized character, and the weight and balance might be problematic. Thus the penalties. The titan mauler archetype eliminates these penalties.

blahpers wrote:
Good luck finding a GM that will allow this stuff.
Oh, that’s easy...I am a GM who would allow “this stuff”. Letting someone take a specific archetype in order to swing whopping big shield around doesn’t break game balance or tone. Is it really worth whipping up house rules to stop?

The titan mauler does not mention shields once. The fact that shields can be used as a weapon is irrelevant.

Its fine as a house rule but its a house rule.


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Mojorat wrote:
The titan mauler does not mention shields once.

You are correct. The Titan Mauler archetype does not say its benefits apply to all weapons except for shields. Therefore there is no reason to assume its benefits do not apply to shields.

Shields are weapons. Heavy shields are one-handed weapons. Creatures may wield one-handed weapons sized for creatures one size categories larger than themselves as two-handed weapons, at a penalty. The Titan Mauler archetype reduces those penalties.

Seems relatively straightforward.


Instead of a Greatsword, try wielding a huge-sized Aklys (the Aklys is a light weapon, so you can wield a huge one as a two-handed weapon), and take a level of lame-cursed oracle of metal while you're at it so that you can cast lead blades and be immune to fatigue. Then chug your inexpensive potion of enlarge person, or have a friend cast that spell on you. Size-boosting spells don't stack, but lead blades doesn't actually increase size, it just increases damage based on how size scales.

Your Aklys is now effectively dealing colossal-sized damage, though physically it's only 2 categories above you, which is negated by 12 levels of Titan Mauler. A medium Aklys is (as far as I can tell) the only light weapon that does 1d8 damage. When you scale that up to colossal, it's 6d6 points of damage.

Now get Greater Vital Strike, and since you're a Barbarian, Furious Finish too. Quadruple that 6d6, then maximize it.

That's 144 on a single hit, and that's before adding any modifiers; it's all from the dice. Since you're a Barbarian and it's at your highest iterative attack, it's also probably an all-but-guaranteed hit against most enemies.

...And that's just a standard action, so you can do it in the same round that you move. If you've got the opportunity to full attack, you can probably forgo the vital strike and wind up dealing even more damage.

(Admittedly I don't anticipate that most GMs would ever allow silly concepts like this.)


blahpers wrote:
Given the sheer damage per hit of a Huge greatsword (much less a Colossal greatsword), I think it's more of a difference of opinion between you and the design team. Barbarians really don't need any more help in the melee damage department; such a boost would render other martials almost irrelevant.

Sort of, on one hand you don't get much damage from weapon damage usually. Its 3.5 more damage on average per size per hit does look nifty though... only 28 extra damage if you hit every time at level 20 with a huge greatsword.

If it matters, I think a lot of the other martials do a dandy job of that on their own.


Gluttony wrote:
(Admittedly I don't anticipate that most GMs would ever allow silly concepts like this.)

I can't speak for most GMs, but I don't consider it silly. Especially considering I've both played as and run for a character who wielded a Huge Heavy(See Magic of Faerun) Fullblade (2d8 greatsword) with a base damage of 2d8>3d8>4d8+Heavy= 8d6


Right the problem is shields are intrinsicly linked to their role as a defensive mechanism. You cannot seperate them.

It creates inconsistancies like having sonething the bigger than a tower shield on your arm. If it neess two hands to wield it why not to wear as well? If it sounds silly I'm simly trying to emphasise its in a whoy rules absent area.

At least your not arguing for huge armour spikes. Even if the visual is funny.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Large-sized Gauntlets sound fun.

HULK HANDS!!!


Mojorat wrote:

Right the problem is shields are intrinsicly linked to their role as a defensive mechanism. You cannot seperate them.

It creates inconsistancies like having sonething the bigger than a tower shield on your arm. If it neess two hands to wield it why not to wear as well? If it sounds silly I'm simly trying to emphasise its in a whoy rules absent area.

At least your not arguing for huge armour spikes. Even if the visual is funny.

Titan Mauler allows them...


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Large-sized Gauntlets sound fun.

HULK HANDS!!!

Add in Impact, Shocking Burst, and Thundering, and Vicious and you have power fists.


Or the apocafists :p actually had a thought does a huge sized dagger keep its light weapon status when its wielded 2h by a medium creature?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Mojorat wrote:
Or the apocafists :p actually had a thought does a huge sized dagger keep its light weapon status when its wielded 2h by a medium creature?

No.

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