|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm not clear on this and I apologize if its been brought up a million times or is clearly indicated some where in the rules.
A character wielding two weapons, both light and with the TWF feat (or any other combo), takes a -2 to hit with each weapon. If the same character takes a move action, greater than a 5 ft step, the character can only make a single attack.
That said, if the character can only make a single attack, despite having two weapons, does the character still incur the -2 to hit for that single attack?
Slightly different scenario, the same character does not move but only chooses to make a single attack in a round. Does the penalty apply?
If the penalties do apply in these situations, it strikes me as a little unfair. Equipping a shield or holding an item in one's offhand does not incur a two weapon penalty unless you attempt to attack with whatever is on the offhand. It also strikes me as odd that wielding two weapons would not only fail to gain you an extra attack after moving, but would still penalize you for making a single attack with one weapon.
I mean, do I have to specify to the DM that I'm not wielding a weapon in my offhand, just holding onto it, until I'm able and willing to make a FRA, so I can avoid the penalty?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He does not take the penalty if he chooses to forego the extra attack from wielding the second weapon.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Correct. You can hold both weapons and make your normal number of attacks without TWF; if you do, you take no TWF penalties at all. For example, a fighter could hold a longsword in one hand and a whip in the other, and if her BAB is +16/+11/+6/+1, she could make four longsword attacks, four whip attacks, three with one and one with the other, two with each, or whatever other combination she likes in whatever order she likes (so long as the BAB is ordered from highest to lowest).
The moment she decides to take a fifth attack based on wielding two weapons, though, she takes TWF penalties and locks in to TWF behavior for that round.
Similarly, if she simply attacks once, such as with the standard attack action, TWF doesn't apply.
He does not take the penalty if he chooses to forego the extra attack from wielding the second weapon.And when he's only allowed to make a single attack, e.g., after taking a move action?
He didn't take any more attacks than he could have wielding a single weapon. TWF does not apply.
Th penalty only matters when you make multipke attacks. Your not forced to take it just because you hold a sexond weapon.if its 1 atta k 1 penalty.
|
|
He does not take the penalty if he chooses to forego the extra attack from wielding the second weapon.And when he's only allowed to make a single attack, e.g., after taking a move action?
He only takes the penalty if he's two-weapon fighting - that is, using the TWF rule in a full attack to get an extra attack. When taking the attack action to make one attack, he isn't using that option.
This also means that if he doesn't apply a TWF penalty to his first attack, he is locked out of claiming TWF to get an extra attack in that round.
+1. You only take 2-weapon fighting penalties IF and WHILE you take a two-weapon fighting action. The rules for that are not at all ambiguous.
Related question, while I'm here: If you're two-weapon fighting, and you get the opportunity to make an attack that's not part of your Full Attack (as a swift action, free action or opportunity attack during your own turn), do those attacks suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties?
On your turn, you suffer the TWF penalties. After your turn is over, you don't. Swift actions and free actions that happen on your turn would both incur penalties.
Most AoOs happen when it is not your turn so normally, you don't suffer them.
For clarification of the original question, you can even fight with both weapons without taking any penalty.
During the full attack action AND if you have a BAB of +6 or higher, you gain an iterative attack. When using this attack, you can choose to attack with your main-hand and off-hand in the same round. Should you do so, and only take the two attacks allowed due to the +6 BAB, then you take no penalties.
If you add a third attack with TWF, then you suffer the penalties for all the attacks.
The rules may not be ambiguous, but the are not clear either. The term "two-weapon fighting" does not mean fighting with two weapons. Common sense and intuition would both say it does.
He does not take the penalty if he chooses to forego the extra attack from wielding the second weapon.And when he's only allowed to make a single attack, e.g., after taking a move action?
For characters who only normally get one attack, that's correct. For characters that normally get multiple attacks based on their Base Attack Bonus (such as those with a BAB of +6 or higher), they can still get multiple attacks using their normal BAB-based attacks without invoking the two-weapon penalty. It's when they gain the extra attack that TWF would give them that they must take the penalty.
A few other notes about Two-Weapon Fighting (see the two weapon fighting entry in the combat section for complete details):
1) The penalty varies depending on what type of weapon is in your off-hand. The -2 is the lowest penalty, and it assumes you have a light weapon in your off hand. If you are using two one-handed weapons, you tak -4 on each attack. (There are some one-handed weapons--like the sawtooth sabre--that count as a light weapon in this case.)
2) As the link above states, you can actually make an extra attack on your turn without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, but the penalties are monstrous (a minimum of -4 on your main hand and -8 on your off hand). All the Two-Weapon Fighting feat does is reduce the penalties for fighting with two weapons.
3) When you are fighting with two weapons (with or without the feat), you can use thrown weapons, also. You can combine melee and thrown attacks in the same turn. (You will still take an attack of opportunity if you try to use a thrown weapon while threatened, however.)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
if the character can only make a single attack, despite having two weapons, does the character still incur the -2 to hit for that single attack?
It depends on when he decides to only take one attack:
- If before he makes the Full Attack action, then he does the Attack Action and doesn't take any penalties associated with TWF.
- If after he makes the Full Attack action but before making a second attack, then he must have paid all penalties. Then makes a move action.
In a crazy corner case, the Monk can actually benefit from this. The Monk BAB goes up if he does a Flurry of Blows.
I have no idea what RAW is, but in my games, we have decided that if the Monk declares a Flurry and kills the target with the first hit or something special happens, such as finds he cannot affect the target, the Monk may finish out the round with his move action.
I know this is a case of getting a benefit with no penalty rather than a penalty with no benefit, but I could not justify making the most maneuverable class the only one that could not switch TWF to a Standard Attack after the first hit.
In two and a half years, it only came up a few times and was never an issue.
Komoda: That is RAW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Komoda: That is RAW.
Technically not (at least, there's a very good argument that it's not). FoB is a full attack action, meaning it takes up both your standard and move action for the turn. This is true whether you only actually make one attack.
The "Deciding Between an Attack or a Full Attack" language typically lets you abort a full attack after making a single attack for this very reason. However, sometimes you forego your ability to decide between making a standard attack or a full attack based on the ability utilized.
For instance, you cannot abort a full attack action after benefiting from the Manyshot feat. If I had to make a technical ruling on the fly, I'd probably liken FoB to Manyshot in that you've already received a primary benefit of the ability by declaring the full attack action, since as a Monk you get to use your Monk level instead of your lower BAB when choosing to Flurry. If you can Flurry on a single attack, you've gotten the benefit of the ability without the cost (using a full attack action). If you can abort the Flurry after one attack and still use your move action, you've gotten to make a standard attack at Monk Level -2, rather than BAB (which will be worse after level 8).
That being said, I likely wouldn't have a problem allowing it in a real game (especially a home one), particularly before level 9 (when FoB BAB finally exceeds Monk's BAB) and definitely before level 5 (when BAB is actually better than FoB BAB). Just saying, technically speaking from a RAW perspective, there's a good argument that you've given up your option to "decide between" if you've opted to make the first attack of a FoB.
Fretgod99 is right. I had a similar question once, concerning my Zen-Archer.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The "Deciding Between an Attack or a Full Attack" language typically lets you abort a full attack after making a single attack for this very reason.
I'm not following.
monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action
The deciding between rule allows you to demote Full-Attack actions and FoB is one.
I agree. Flurry grants a benefit on the first attack. You cannot switch from flurry to a standard action because you would have benefitted numerically from flurry modifiers that would not have applied to a standard action attack.
+1. You only take 2-weapon fighting penalties IF and WHILE you take a two-weapon fighting action. The rules for that are not at all ambiguous.
Related question, while I'm here: If you're two-weapon fighting, and you get the opportunity to make an attack that's not part of your Full Attack (as a swift action, free action or opportunity attack during your own turn), do those attacks suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties?
No. Only attacks made as part of a full attack action suffer penalties of if you make an AoO, or you have another way to get a random extra attack it does not force you to take any penalties.
Kazaan you just have to eat the penalty. I know it does not seem fair, but that is how the rule works. I guess from a flavor point of view you are so focused on trying to handle two weapons that it throws off your concentration enough to give you the penalty on the first attack.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Manyshot FAQ which explains that using a feat or ability contingent on making a full-attack, which grants its benefit on the very first attack, you are obligated to continue with the full-attack and are "locked out" of the option to step down to a Standard Attack.
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit
Manyshot is two attacks. FoB is one additional attack, but it is tied to an attack roll. So I read it as allowing you to down grade the Full-Attack to a Standard with FoB or with TWF if you only took one attack.
In both cases you gain all benefits (and penalties) of fighting with two weapons, you just only take one attack and then move.
I am inclined not to penalize the monk for using FoB and killing the guy in one hit.
FoB works "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat." You can't use that feat without two-weapon fighting. And it has been ruled that you can break off the attack after the first hit.
Now, if my players tried to abuse it, I would summarily abuse them. But in general I think it is within the rules.
Otherwise what are you going to do? They never pay the -2 penalty and they stop paying any penalty at level 5.
I think this one time it works if favor of the Monk. I am not willing to say he can't do what every other class can do because he is better at it.
As I interpret it, it doesn't need a house rule. It just needs to follow the rules for Two-Weapon Fighting.
Manyshot FAQ which explains that using a feat or ability contingent on making a full-attack, which grants its benefit on the very first attack, you are obligated to continue with the full-attack and are "locked out" of the option to step down to a Standard Attack.
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hitManyshot is two attacks. FoB is one additional attack, but it is tied to an attack roll. So I read it as allowing you to down grade the Full-Attack to a Standard with FoB or with TWF if you only took one attack.
In both cases you gain all benefits (and penalties) of fighting with two weapons, you just only take one attack and then move.
Manyshot is not two attacks; it's one attack with two arrows.
TWF on the first attack is all penalty and no benefit.
FoB is a mix of benefit and penalty on the first attack. You're benefiting immediately from doing something which requires you to utilize a full attack action, then attempting to reduce that full attack to a standard attack. This is precisely what the Manyshot FAQ addresses (essentially, if you benefit from taking a full attack action you cannot gain that benefit then ignore the requirement to actually utilize a full attack action).
So from a RAWwy RAW RAWRAW perspective, you cannot downgrade a FoB. However as I noted above, I probably wouldn't really hold a Monk to that in actuality. This absolutely is a house rule on my part. A completely reasonable house rule, but a house rule nonetheless.
Not so clear per RAW RAW RAW.
You interpret it that way, and the interpretation is not out of line.
I have explained my interpretation of RAW as well. Just so happens I apply the same standard to the act of using Two-Weapon Fighting in both cases and you apply the same standard of gaining a bonus vs. a penalty.
I claim that the core mechanic is extra attacks. The Monk gained none, therefore can continue about his round.
As I understand it from hazy memories of developer commentary on the subject, the core intent is that you can convert a full attack to a standard action attack when the result would be indistinguishable from having made a standard action attack to begin with. Flurry doesn't really follow that paradigm.
Letting a monk convert to standard gives them a slight boost at later levels, but it isn't much and would cause no rioting in the streets.
But I wanted to test out my new riot gear!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not so clear per RAW RAW RAW.
You interpret it that way, and the interpretation is not out of line.
I have explained my interpretation of RAW as well. Just so happens I apply the same standard to the act of using Two-Weapon Fighting in both cases and you apply the same standard of gaining a bonus vs. a penalty.
I claim that the core mechanic is extra attacks. The Monk gained none, therefore can continue about his round.
It was "RAWwy RAW RAWRAW". You said it wrong. The last two are like one word. It makes for a totally different argument.
Also, if there are to be no riots, can I take off my face shield now? My breath keeps fogging it up.